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Old August 28th, 2010, 03:38 AM   #1
Dr.Mabuse
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Battle for Vienna - A small knowledge in history

Hello,

when watching many european cities and disscusing about the look and history, ww2 can not be outlooked. Stalingrad, Warsaw, Berlin, Rotterdam, London and Budapest, for example were heavy damaged to almost destroyed. Within this thread i want to give small info about the battle of vienna and the air raids on austrian cities, if you doesn't know. And if you already know, then watch the pics, you possibly haven't seen yet, as i think it is hard to find warfootage of austria. In comparrison with London, Warsaw, Berlin or Budapest, Vienna faced much less desruction, but there were some bombings, damage and destruction, if you think the opposite, vienna was complete untouched. The focus of this thread is to show pics (and some youtubeclips)

First text (you can scroll down if you doesn't like to read)

Soviet Vienna-Offensive
The offensive lasted from 2–13 April 1945. The city of Vienna was surrounded and under siege for most of the offensive. The battle for the Austrian capital was characterized in some cases by fierce urban combat, but there were also parts of the city the Soviets advanced into with little opposition
By 9 April, the Soviet troops began to infiltrate the center of the city, but the street fighting continued for several days more. On the night of 11 April, the 4th Guards Army stormed the Danube canals, with the 20th Guards Rifle Corps and 1st Mechanized Corps moving on the Reichsbrücke Bridge. In a coup de main on 13 April, the Danube Flotilla landed troops of the 80th Guards Rifle Division and 7th Guards Airborne Division on both sides of the bridge, cutting demolition cables and securing the bridge. However, other important bridges were destroyed. Vienna finally fell when the last defenders in the city surrendered on the same day
While the street fighting was still intensifying in the southern and western suburbs of Vienna on 8 April, other troops of the 3rd Ukrainian Front by-passed Vienna altogether and advanced on Linz and Graz. By 15 April, armies of the Soviet 3rd Ukrainian Front pushed even further into Austria.

Some of Vienna's finest buildings lay in ruins after the battle. There was no water, electricity, or gas — and bands of people, both foreigners and Austrians, plundered and assaulted the hapless residents in the absence of a police force.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Offensive

Air raids on Vienna
The city of Vienna in Austria was bombed fifty-two times during World War II, and 87,000 houses of the city were lost (20% of the entire city). Only 41 civilian vehicles survived the raids, more than 3,000 bomb craters were counted and the Schwarzenberg Palace was bombed but later rebuilt.

The air defences of Vienna were aided by a ring of anti-aircraft batteries set up around the city and three pairs of so-called Flak towers. These were large anti-aircraft gun blockhouses built right in the city.
Some Vienna factories were moved to bomb-proof sites such as caves or hidden in other ways. The military industry even boosted its production, also by use of forced labour of concentration camp inmates and POWs.

By early 1945 Vienna had already faced 1,800 bombs. In February and March 1945, 80,000 tons of bombs were dropped by US and British aircraft, destroying more than 12,000 buildings, and 270,000 people were left homeless

March 14, 1945 During the briefing for bombing the Vienna oil refinery, the briefing officer told crews to avoid the St. Stephen's Cathedral, the Vienna State Opera, the Schönbrunn Palace and other historic buildings and schools. Due to weather, the alternate target (Wiener Neustadt marshaling yards) was bombed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing...n_World_War_II

During World War II, Wiener Neustadt was the target of bombing raids by the Allies, because of aircraft factory and 2 Raxwerke plants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_..._WWII_bombings

RANDOM PICS

Stephansdom caught fire

http://schule.diefenbach.at/FBA/Wurz...n/IMAGE002.JPG


http://www.wien-vienna.at/images-bra...sdom_brand.jpg


http://www.wien-vienna.at/images-bra...enrad_1945.jpg

Börse

http://www.wien.gv.at/feuerwehr/images/boerse.jpg

After the Battle. Drive-bye of soviet vehicles in front of the Parliament

http://austria-lexikon.at/attach/Wis...x365_35308.jpg

29. April 1945: Government Renner on his way to the Parliament, escorted by soviets.

http://www.vorarlberg.gv.at/jpg/wien...45-regier2.jpg

Russians in Vienna

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6...ninwienro8.jpg

Destroyed Bridge in Vienna

http://193.171.155.106/~bunker/der_k...s/image008.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...ad_wars_09.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...ad_wars_12.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...ad_wars_01.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...ad_wars_06.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...ad_wars_10.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...d_wars_103.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...d_wars_104.jpg

IMPACT!

http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...d_wars_105.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...d_wars_107.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...ad_wars_11.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...d_wars_112.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...d_wars_125.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...ad_wars_15.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...ad_wars_21.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...ad_wars_31.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...ad_wars_33.jpg


http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...ad_wars_43.jpg

More photos
http://www.webpark.ru/comment/49632

What the second of may for berlin is, is the 13th april for Vienna. Russian Soldiers celebrat the victory of vienna on the roof of the Neue Hofburg

http://www.wien-vienna.at/images-bra...daten_1945.jpg

http://www.wien-vienna.at/geschichte.php?ID=773


http://www.wwiihistorymagazine.com/c...9-Vienna-1.jpg

http://www.wwiihistorymagazine.com/c...09/vienna.html

US-Tank Sherman in soviet service in front of the Naturalmuseum Vienna

http://www.mediathek.at/downloadplat...source/1021509

Railwayarea in LINZ!

http://www.mediathek.at/downloadplat...source/1021511

Opera

http://www.wien-vienna.at/images-brand/weltkrieg2_1.jpg


http://www.wien-vienna.at/images-bra...deraufbau3.jpg

US-American Bomb in the Austrian Army Museum Vienna. Thousands of unexploded bombs are still in austrian ground.

http://www.wien-vienna.at/images-gaube/fliegerbombe.jpg

More info
http://www.wien-vienna.at/geschichte.php?ID=773

Bombs on LINZ in April 45

http://austria-lexikon.at/attach/AEI...C_Zweiter2.jpg

April 1945 Over Graz: BOMBS AWAY!

http://austria-lexikon.at/attach/Wis...Graz/35415.jpg

Tropichouse Vienna

http://www.hietzing.at/fotos/1210159941_1.jpg

Stephandom

http://www.stadt-wien.at/index.php?e...50f61bb51c28b0

Phillipphof Vienna, destroyed, never rebuilded, today memorial of war

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Philipphof.jpg

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipphof


http://www.mediathek.at/downloadplat...source/1011054

http://www.mediathek.at/staatsvertra...ftangriffe.htm

Hits Vienna

http://www.airpower.at/news03/0813_l...nziel_wien.gif

Hits and expected unexploded Graz

http://www.airpower.at/news03/0813_l...nziel_graz.gif


http://www.frankambrose.com/graphics/Bombrange.jpg

RAF over Insbruck

http://www.airpower.at/news03/0813_l...5innsbruck.jpg

Parts of B-24 Bomber at the Armymuseum Vienna


http://www.airpower.at/news03/0813_l.../statistik.htm


Arieal photos of Targetareas in Austria
http://www.unterirdisch-forum.de/for...ead.php?t=7267

Some Videoclips

Liberation of Vienna


more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjwKe...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxgdz...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOGVQ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10tCV...eature=related


http://lh3.ggpht.com/_kmv7R__ZlLA/Rp...8/P1030885.JPG

Putin lays wreath at Soviet memorial in Vienna
http://dalje.com/en-world/putin-lays...-vienna/303399

Occupied from 1945 to 1955

http://www.annefrankguide.net/de-AT/...Zonenkarte.jpg

So, luckily Vienna and Austria wasn't hit hard as other european cities and countries.
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Old August 28th, 2010, 01:30 PM   #2
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Dr. Mabuse,

Some pics of yours were taken in Budapest instead Vienna

Near to Nyugati (West) Station
http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...ad_wars_01.jpg

Museum of applied arts
http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...d_wars_103.jpg

View from the parliament’s entrance showing the Royal Supreme Court and on the right the Ministry of agriculture. (The lamp with the flag belongs to the parliament building)
http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...d_wars_107.jpg

same as first
http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...d_wars_125.jpg
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Old August 28th, 2010, 01:56 PM   #3
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Very interesting photos!

I would add Salzburg, and one of the worst casualties was the Tanzmeisterhaus, or Mozart-Wohnhaus, the place where Mozart and his parents lived in Salzburg from 1773 until Mozart left and moved to Vienna in the early 1780s, and the house where Leopold Mozart died in 1787. It was hit by a bomb in 1944 and half of it was totally destroyed. A modern building was constructed on the site but, fortunately, from 1994 the post-war building was demolished and an accurate reconstruction of the lost part of the Wohnhaus was rebuilt!

Pre-war:


http://www.ultraschall2009.at/?pid=9&lang=1


http://www.heritagealive.eu/photos/asdfasf/


Destroyed:


http://austria-lexikon.at/af/Wissens...rt_Wohnhaus%29


http://www.kirchen.net/rupertusblatt...chiv&apid=3745

Restored:

http://www.imlauer.com/de-mozarts-wohnhaus.htm


http://www.mozarteum.at/en/museums/m...residence.html


http://www.mozarteum.at/en/museums/m...residence.html

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Old August 28th, 2010, 02:06 PM   #4
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They should tear down that monument to the Soviets.
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Old August 28th, 2010, 02:28 PM   #5
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Really interesting thread. Great work, danke Dr.!
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Old August 28th, 2010, 03:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semperist View Post
Dr. Mabuse,

Some pics of yours were taken in Budapest instead Vienna

Near to Nyugati (West) Station
http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...ad_wars_01.jpg

Museum of applied arts
http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...d_wars_103.jpg

View from the parliament’s entrance showing the Royal Supreme Court and on the right the Ministry of agriculture. (The lamp with the flag belongs to the parliament building)
http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...d_wars_107.jpg

same as first
http://images2.webpark.ru/uploads53/...d_wars_125.jpg
ah thank you. i dont understand russian and i supposed all were made in vienna, tough i wondered that some pics looked like budapest.lol
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Old August 28th, 2010, 08:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
They should tear down that monument to the Soviets.
It was built in 1945 by the Soviet army to commemorate the 17,000 Soviet soldiers that died in the course of the "Battle for Vienna". The plan to built such a memorial first occurred in February of 1945 - note that this was before the battle had even started.

In the nearby "Haus der Industrie", the council of the allied forces met and it is likely that the Soviets chose this location partly in order to rub into the faces of US, French and British delegates that it had been them who had conquered Vienna. This made the Heldendenkmal even more important from the propagandistic point of view.

The original Heldendenkmal included a tank. In 1946, the Heldendenkmal was opened and the Schwarzenbergplatz changed its name into Stalinplatz.

Dead Soviet soldiers were buried on the site of the memorial. In 1955, when the allied troops withdrew and released Austria into independence, a state treaty was signed in which Austria guaranteed to take care of the maintenance of the Heldendenkmal. Forever. The Stalinplatz was re-named into Schwarzenbergplatz, the tank was transferred to the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum in the nearby Arsenal; and the buried soldiers were exhumed and their bodies transferred to an honorary section of the Zentralfriedhof.

However, as even "neutral" historians point out, the Heldendenkmal is an important feature recalling a crucial period in the history of Vienna.


http://www.tourmycountry.com/austria...ial-vienna.htm

so it is impossible to tear it down!


The large gold letters over the columns read, "Eternal glory to the heroes of the Red Army who fell in battle with Germano-fascist occupiers - for the freedom and independence of Europe."

The side lists the names of men who died as heros in the battle for Vienna.

The Soviet soldier at the top is in full battle gear, carrying a Soviet banner and the Soviet coat of arms.


http://sites-of-memory.de/images/viennasoviet5.jpg

http://sites-of-memory.de/main/viennasoviet.html

More pics

http://www.mediathek.at/downloadplat...source/1021525

If you click the link and then "Stadt in Ruinen" you see an amateurclip from 45/46 about Vienna!!!
http://www.mediathek.at/staatsvertra...id=1000070.htm

Occupied Austria
http://www.mediathek.at/staatsvertra.../seite1_12.htm

The Austrian Torgau: Meeting of American and Soviet on the ennsbridge close to the city of enns

General Walker und General Dimitrov

http://www.ennsdorf.gv.at/media/enns_1072004331.jpg

http://www.ennsdorf.gv.at/content.php?pageId=5549

All in all Austra wasn't that hit hard, because the bombers could reach the cities first time in 1944. Also, russians and americans handled austria as an victim of the nazis.
And the Americans and British used mostly "explode-bombs" but no "firebombs"
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Old August 28th, 2010, 09:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Mabuse View Post
The plan to built such a memorial first occurred in February of 1945 - note that this was before the battle had even started.
The arrogance of the Soviet Union was simply astounding! They were planning to build a monument to themselves long before the War even ended!

Quote:
"Eternal glory to the heroes of the Red Army who fell in battle with Germano-fascist occupiers - for the freedom and independence of Europe."
You cant help but wonder what were these people smoking. They clearly imply they are liberators. Liberators do not rape, murder, plunder, pilage or build monuments to themselves it is conquerors that do that. They oppressed the people of Europe for over 50 years and yet claim they fought for the independence of Europe! It would be hilarious if it wasnt so sad.
If you want to see liberators then look no further than the Americans and the British. They did not rape or murder, they guided and helped these countries become what they are now - wealthy, stable and modern states, while Russians turned everything they touched to shit. Ironically too, it is not Germany, Austria, Poland or the Baltics that suffer from Neo-Nazi problems it is Russia.
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Last edited by El_Greco; August 28th, 2010 at 09:17 PM.
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Old August 28th, 2010, 09:51 PM   #9
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El Greco, honey, we all know you have Russia Derangement Syndrome.

Sorry, but nothing the Soviets did will ever compare to what the Nazis did and what they were going to do.

Hell, even Japan committed more atrocities than the USSR.

Quote:
If you want to see liberators then look no further than the Americans and the British. They did not rape or murder
That's debatable, as war brings out the worst in men.

Last edited by manrush; August 28th, 2010 at 10:03 PM.
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Old August 28th, 2010, 11:23 PM   #10
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Oh if things were that simple, heres a brilliant post by UK forumer made a few years ago, I hope he wont mind if I post it here -

Quote:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm

Question: Who was the Bloodiest Tyrant of the 20th Century?
Answer: We don't know.

That's probably the saddest fact of the Twentieth Century. There are so many candidates for the award of top monster that we can't decide between them. Whether it's Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong or Iosif Stalin is, quite frankly, anybody's guess.

For now, let's just skip over the whole margin of error thing -- reasonable people have studied the evidence and come up with wildly differing numbers. You're free to check my sources, but for now, trust me. I've studied the matter at great length and decided that the most likely death toll for these three are:

DEATHS TYRANT
40M = Mao
34M = Hitler
20M = Stalin

Well, that certainly looks like Mao is our man, but wait. Mao's largest crime is the Great Leap Forward, a bungled attempt to restructure the economy of China which created a famine that killed some 30M. If we confine our indictment to deliberate killings, we get this:

KILLINGS TYRANT
34M = Hitler
20M = Stalin
10M = Mao

So it's Hitler, right? Except that most of the deaths on his head were caused by the Second World War. Sure, he started it, but our society does not blanketly condemn the starting of wars (after all, we reserve the right to do it ourselves in a just cause), and we certainly don't consider killing armed enemy soldiers in a fair fight to be a crime against humanity. If we therefore confine ourselves to the cold-blooded murder of unarmed non-combatants, our table rearranges itself again:

MURDERS TYRANT
20M = Stalin
15M = Hitler
10M = Mao

This brings Stalin floating to the top. So it look like once you reduce their crimes to the unjustifiably lowest common denominator, then Stalin is worst; however, you might want to argue that dead is dead so it really doesn't matter if you give your victims a chance to fight back. Fighting an unjust or reckless war is certainly a crime against humanity, so our numbers should go back to:

KILLINGS TYRANT
34M = Hitler
20M = Stalin
10M = Mao

... and these are just the problems we'll encounter if we accept my numbers without debate. If we want to use the estimates of other scholars, we can pin up to 50 million murders on Stalin, enough to push him to the top of the list regardless of definition. Or we can whittle him down to 10 million murders if we use the low end of the margin of error, and scrounge several more tens of millions for Mao, or away from him.

So, the answer to the question of "Who is roasting on the hottest fires in Hell?" is "Well, that depends..."
So, whichever way you want to spin it the fact of the matter is that Soviets are up there with the worst of the worst and as such should not have monuments.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 12:02 AM   #11
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Quote:
So, whichever way you want to spin it the fact of the matter is that Soviets are up there with the worst of the worst and as such should not have monuments.
The Japanese committed unspeakable atrocities and yet Yasukuni Shrine houses the Kami of the worst war criminals. The shrine shouldn't be there either. But it is, so there's no use wringing one's hands over it.

But why am I explaining this to such a biased Russophobe?

Last edited by manrush; August 29th, 2010 at 12:08 AM.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 01:19 AM   #12
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While I agree that the USSR was often worse than Nazi Germany in terms of atrocities committed, you cannot given the allies a clean slate, because they did a lot of bad stuff too. Just look at Dresden.

I'm just glad the damage to Vienna wasn't as awful as let's say, Berlin.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 02:06 AM   #13
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There is no "often" here. "At times" would be a better phrasing.

Look, bombing Dresden was bad, but guess who happened to be the pioneer of mass bombing from the sky.

Quote:
I'm just glad the damage to Vienna wasn't as awful as let's say, Berlin.
Or Rotterdam.

Or Gernika.

Or Leningrad.

Or Chongqing.

Or Warsaw.

Need I go on?
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Old August 29th, 2010, 05:10 AM   #14
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The question "who is worst" is solved very simply:

- nature of action: planned or unplanned
- consequence of action: number of victims

Nothing is worse than a planned action, as it represents a conscious choice. That is what defines Evil as such.

The Nazis planned to exterminate/enslave all non-Germanic peoples. They are responsible for:

- planned genocides
- planned atrocities
- planned rapes (see. german military brothels)
- planned destruction of cultural values

Stalin: 3 million deaths were the direct result of his conscious choice to make those people disappear. 7 million (and war rapes) were the result of his carelessness. There are laws against carelessness, of course.

What is often overlooked, but shouldn't be, is the subject of mentality behind allied fire-bombings. To make a conscious choice to incinerate hundreds of thousands of civilian people alive - to me, it represents another side of the same coin. The same coin, with a strong historical pattern. A strong historical pattern of intolerance.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 05:24 AM   #15
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Yes, it is a conscious choice. And yes, the firebombings do seem cruel.

But war is not (or was not) supposed to be a task that left mens' souls in a pristine condition.

That's what pisses me off about the concentration on the bombings that the Allies did (including the A-bomb).

The biggest difference is this one: the Allies were hoping (maybe in vain?) to break the morale of the enemy's civilians in such a way that the leadership would be forced to sue for peace.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 12:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manrush View Post
The biggest difference is this one: the Allies were hoping (maybe in vain?) to break the morale of the enemy's civilians in such a way that the leadership would be forced to sue for peace.
Bombing of England's cities hadn't broken the morale of the English so why should it have had that effect on the Germans? Not only that, but with the benefit of hindsight we can see that it would probably have been much better to have put the vast resources gobbled up by Bomber Command into other areas of the war effort. And studies have shown that a concentration of attacks on railways alone would've made more of an impact than the complete destruction of an entire city.

I'm English and clearly I'm thankful that 'we won the war' but I think, by the end, some of the Allies tactics made us no better than the Nazis. Which is fine, but don't then parade yourself as the moral victors. The 'they started it' argument doesn't wash with me either. As Nietzsche said, when you look into the abyss then the abyss looks back into you. Churchill was right when he said that the destruction of Dresden was a stain on the Allies' war record. I can think of many others. How could it ever be justifiable from a moral perspective to try and kill as many civilians as possible?
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Old August 29th, 2010, 02:11 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botswana View Post
While I agree that the USSR was often worse than Nazi Germany in terms of atrocities committed, you cannot given the allies a clean slate, because they did a lot of bad stuff too. Just look at Dresden.
Everyone did bad stuff, however the worst War Criminals were the Soviets, followed closely by the Nazis, then the French (mostly their North African troops), the Americans and the British (Dresden, which is debatable of course, if you remove Dresden Brits are clean). Infact Brits deserve a massive applause for their performance in the War ; despite everything they went through they did not lose their humanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ainttelling View Post
3 million deaths were the direct result of his conscious choice to make those people disappear. 7 million (and war rapes) were the result of his carelessness. There are laws against carelessness, of course.
Stalins regime killed 60 million people. Included in this list are those who were executed, died in gulags, died in exile, POWs and Civilians and those who died from famines. Stalin was quite simply a monster of epic proportions, but what makes it worse is that in parts of Russia he is still considered a great hero. Even the Russian government stated that breakup of USSR was a great tragedy.
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Last edited by El_Greco; August 29th, 2010 at 02:16 PM.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 02:26 PM   #18
ainttelling
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Stalins regime killed 60 million people. Included in this list are those who were executed, died in gulags, died in exile, POWs and Civilians and those who died from famines. Stalin was quite simply a monster of epic proportions, but what makes it worse is that in parts of Russia he is still considered a great hero. Even the Russian government stated that breakup of USSR was a great tragedy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin#...ber_of_victims
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Old August 29th, 2010, 02:41 PM   #19
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Everyone did bad stuff, however the worst War Criminals were [Soviets → Nazis → French → Americans → British] (Dresden which is debatable of course, if you remove Dresden Brits are clean). Infact Brits deserve a massive applause for their performance in the War ; despite everything they went through they did not lose their humanity.
This is what I was talking about when mentioned "the mentality behind allied fire-bombings".

Last edited by ainttelling; August 29th, 2010 at 02:47 PM.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 03:39 PM   #20
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yeah, you all ar right, but can we go back to the topic of this thread? which is: battle for vienna...please
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