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Old August 29th, 2010, 07:31 PM   #21
manrush
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Mabuse View Post
yeah, you all ar right, but can we go back to the topic of this thread? which is: battle for vienna...please
The topic of the thread is the reason this whole argument started.

Sorry, but it's fodder to blind Russophobes.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 07:37 PM   #22
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Stalin and Soviet regime in general murdered over 60 million people, the Red Army were just a bunch of rapists and murderers. These are facts and historians agree with this. If you think these are just lies and anti-Russian propaganda then youre simply deluded.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 07:53 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Stalin and Soviet regime in general murdered over 60 million people, the Red Army were just a bunch of rapists and murderers. These are facts and historians agree with this. If you think these are just lies and anti-Russian propaganda then youre simply deluded.
Your blind Russophobia never ceases to amuse me.

Hitler's regime committed greater crimes than Stalin's.

The Red Army's crimes are always overstated.

It seems that a Russian girl really did reject you.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 07:57 PM   #24
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Of course, instead of facing up to the uncomfortable facts it is always easier to call others Russophobes, ignore it all and live in your own little world. Remember history is on my side or maybe you think it is all just lies? If yes then youre deluded.

Quote:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm

Question: Who was the Bloodiest Tyrant of the 20th Century?
Answer: We don't know.

That's probably the saddest fact of the Twentieth Century. There are so many candidates for the award of top monster that we can't decide between them. Whether it's Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong or Iosif Stalin is, quite frankly, anybody's guess.

For now, let's just skip over the whole margin of error thing -- reasonable people have studied the evidence and come up with wildly differing numbers. You're free to check my sources, but for now, trust me. I've studied the matter at great length and decided that the most likely death toll for these three are:

DEATHS TYRANT
40M = Mao
34M = Hitler
20M = Stalin

Well, that certainly looks like Mao is our man, but wait. Mao's largest crime is the Great Leap Forward, a bungled attempt to restructure the economy of China which created a famine that killed some 30M. If we confine our indictment to deliberate killings, we get this:

KILLINGS TYRANT
34M = Hitler
20M = Stalin
10M = Mao

So it's Hitler, right? Except that most of the deaths on his head were caused by the Second World War. Sure, he started it, but our society does not blanketly condemn the starting of wars (after all, we reserve the right to do it ourselves in a just cause), and we certainly don't consider killing armed enemy soldiers in a fair fight to be a crime against humanity. If we therefore confine ourselves to the cold-blooded murder of unarmed non-combatants, our table rearranges itself again:

MURDERS TYRANT
20M = Stalin
15M = Hitler
10M = Mao

This brings Stalin floating to the top. So it look like once you reduce their crimes to the unjustifiably lowest common denominator, then Stalin is worst; however, you might want to argue that dead is dead so it really doesn't matter if you give your victims a chance to fight back. Fighting an unjust or reckless war is certainly a crime against humanity, so our numbers should go back to:

KILLINGS TYRANT
34M = Hitler
20M = Stalin
10M = Mao

... and these are just the problems we'll encounter if we accept my numbers without debate. If we want to use the estimates of other scholars, we can pin up to 50 million murders on Stalin, enough to push him to the top of the list regardless of definition. Or we can whittle him down to 10 million murders if we use the low end of the margin of error, and scrounge several more tens of millions for Mao, or away from him.

So, the answer to the question of "Who is roasting on the hottest fires in Hell?" is "Well, that depends..."
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Old August 29th, 2010, 08:07 PM   #25
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Russophobes always twist the facts to make Russia look like the primary villain.

Oh well, it's the prerogative.

No, El Puko. History is NOT on your side.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 08:25 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manrush View Post
The topic of the thread is the reason this whole argument started.

Sorry, but it's fodder to blind Russophobes.
I disagree. It was simple to give knowledge, nothing more. It has been discussed more than enough.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 08:30 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manrush View Post
Russophobes always twist the facts to make Russia look like the primary villain.

Oh well, it's the prerogative.

No, El Puko. History is NOT on your side.
So you are not going to counter anything of what I said with facts and figures and instead will repeat the same old 'They are all Russophobes' bullshit? It says more about you than it does about me. This clearly establishes that youre deluded and thus theres no point in continuing this debate.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 09:48 PM   #28
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Stop the general discussion on war victims and get back to topic now.


I'll have to close this one otherwise, as I don't see some constructive discussion on the actual Battle of Vienna happening.
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Old August 30th, 2010, 03:19 PM   #29
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Hello everybody!

I allow myself not to participate in these historical disputes. I just want to load a few photos. Unfortunately, Dr.Mabuse did not want to post it at this thread.

Soviet women controlling traffic at Vienna streets:

waralbum


waralbum
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Old August 30th, 2010, 03:19 PM   #30
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Soviet soldiers near control post:

waralbum

Soviet soldiers near Johann Strauss' II grave:

waralbum

Soviet soldier near Ludwig van Bethoven's grave:

waralbum
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Old September 5th, 2010, 04:46 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Mabuse View Post
This is Budapest, Museum of Applied Arts:

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Old September 6th, 2010, 03:06 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Liberators do not rape, murder, plunder, pilage
A fact not really that well-known in the west is that this is exactly what the western alleys did after the German surrender, until they realized that it stalled the rebuilding process. This is one of the reasons why the Germans after the war saw themselves as victims rather than aggressors.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 03:13 PM   #33
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This did not happen and if it did it was just a one off, nothing that could even remotely be compared to what the Soviets did.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 04:19 PM   #34
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If there's a more painful way to die other than incendiary formulas, I have not heard about it. So, I've made up my mind. The use of incendiary weapons indicated a complete lack of empathy on the part of the allied generals. And who is better to represent a country's elite (who in the peace time would be politicians, judges and so on) if not the generals. I guess there's something even worse than a conscious choice to do evil, after all.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 10:20 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
This did not happen and if it did it was just a one off, nothing that could even remotely be compared to what the Soviets did.
Nothing is comparable to what the soviets did - but then they are infamous for the terror they inflicted on eastern Europe. It´s more interesting to know about the not so well- known events. German civilians were murdered, raped and deported by the western allies after the war had ended - which led to the death of countless people.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 11:01 PM   #36
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I don't see the reasons why the Austrians should be dissatisfied with Soviets. Their own government choose an alliance with Nazis, Soviets liberated them from it and leave their country after order recovery. Therefore I don't understand these claims.

El Greco if you want you can write letter to the Austrian parliament with requirement to blow up this monument. May be somebody will be read it.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 11:27 PM   #37
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I don't see the reasons why the Austrians should be dissatisfied with Soviets.
Of course you dont - you have been brainwashed.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 12:13 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Of course you dont - you have been brainwashed.
1938-1945: Austria (Ostmark) - land of Nazi Germany;
1945-today: Austria - independent state.

Territory of Austrian state:
1938-1945: 000.000 sq.km.
1945-today: 83.872 sq.km.


What problem, guys? What was destroyed by Soviets?
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Old September 7th, 2010, 12:18 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bricks View Post
Nothing is comparable to what the soviets did - but then they are infamous for the terror they inflicted on eastern Europe. It´s more interesting to know about the not so well- known events. German civilians were murdered, raped and deported by the western allies after the war had ended - which led to the death of countless people.
That is certainly news to me, do you have a link? Not that I dont believe you, just curious.

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Originally Posted by LarisaCh View Post
1938-1945: Austria (Ostmark) - land of Nazi Germany;
1945-today: Austria - independent state.

Territory of Austrian state:
1938-1945: 000.000 sq.km.
1945-today: 83.872 sq.km.


What problem, guys? What was destroyed by Soviets?
Ignorance is bliss isnt it?
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Old September 7th, 2010, 12:21 AM   #40
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delete.

Last edited by LarisaCh; September 7th, 2010 at 02:44 PM.
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