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Old September 7th, 2010, 12:24 AM   #41
LarisaCh
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Old September 7th, 2010, 11:54 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
That is certainly news to me, do you have a link? Not that I dont believe you, just curious.
I actually read an essay about this last spring, which was based on books about life in Berlin and Germany in 1945. None of these books are written by German authors for obvious reasons, but there are many great books by British and American authors. Berlin: The Downfall 1945 by Antony Beevor is a good one, although it mostly deals with the Soviets and of course leaves the rest of Germany unaccounted for.

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Originally Posted by LarisaCh View Post
Very well. May be you will inform us about real crimes and murders, which were made by the Eastern European troops (Hungarians, Romanians, Croats, Slovaks, Bulgarians) together with their Nazi friends against the Soviet people.
The real crimes? The famous Russian logic eh? You people can´t seem to grip that your country is responsible for some of the most terrible crimes against humanity in world history.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 01:17 PM   #43
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Old September 7th, 2010, 01:31 PM   #44
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Old September 7th, 2010, 01:49 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by LarisaCh View Post
The most terrible crimes against humanity in world history were crimes maden by Nazis and their allies.
OK at the risk of sounding like a broken record Ill post this again -

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http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm

Question: Who was the Bloodiest Tyrant of the 20th Century?
Answer: We don't know.

That's probably the saddest fact of the Twentieth Century. There are so many candidates for the award of top monster that we can't decide between them. Whether it's Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong or Iosif Stalin is, quite frankly, anybody's guess.

For now, let's just skip over the whole margin of error thing -- reasonable people have studied the evidence and come up with wildly differing numbers. You're free to check my sources, but for now, trust me. I've studied the matter at great length and decided that the most likely death toll for these three are:

DEATHS TYRANT
40M = Mao
34M = Hitler
20M = Stalin

Well, that certainly looks like Mao is our man, but wait. Mao's largest crime is the Great Leap Forward, a bungled attempt to restructure the economy of China which created a famine that killed some 30M. If we confine our indictment to deliberate killings, we get this:

KILLINGS TYRANT
34M = Hitler
20M = Stalin
10M = Mao

So it's Hitler, right? Except that most of the deaths on his head were caused by the Second World War. Sure, he started it, but our society does not blanketly condemn the starting of wars (after all, we reserve the right to do it ourselves in a just cause), and we certainly don't consider killing armed enemy soldiers in a fair fight to be a crime against humanity. If we therefore confine ourselves to the cold-blooded murder of unarmed non-combatants, our table rearranges itself again:

MURDERS TYRANT
20M = Stalin
15M = Hitler
10M = Mao

This brings Stalin floating to the top. So it look like once you reduce their crimes to the unjustifiably lowest common denominator, then Stalin is worst; however, you might want to argue that dead is dead so it really doesn't matter if you give your victims a chance to fight back. Fighting an unjust or reckless war is certainly a crime against humanity, so our numbers should go back to:

KILLINGS TYRANT
34M = Hitler
20M = Stalin
10M = Mao

... and these are just the problems we'll encounter if we accept my numbers without debate. If we want to use the estimates of other scholars, we can pin up to 50 million murders on Stalin, enough to push him to the top of the list regardless of definition. Or we can whittle him down to 10 million murders if we use the low end of the margin of error, and scrounge several more tens of millions for Mao, or away from him.

So, the answer to the question of "Who is roasting on the hottest fires in Hell?" is "Well, that depends..."
As well as this -

Soviet Union perpetrated crimes

Katyń massacre - An NKVD-committed massacre of tens of thousands of Polish officers and intelligentsia throughout the spring of 1940. Originally believed to have been committed by the Nazis in 1941 (after the invasion of eastern Poland and the USSR), it was finally admitted by Mikhail Gorbachev in 1990 that it had been a Soviet operation.

Invasion of Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia - An NKVD-committed deportation and murder of hundreds of thousands of Baltic people, including intelligentsia, land holders and their families and anyone who was considered a threat to Soviet regime in June 1941 and again in January 1949.

Invasion of Polan

The Continuation War - During the war, Soviets conducted raids into Finnish territory and attacked civilian targets such as villages. In November 2006, photographs showing atrocities were declassified by the Finnish authorities. These include images of slain women and children.

Execution of Prisoners - Deportations, summary executions of political prisoners and the burning of foodstocks and villages took place when the Red Army retreated before the advancing Axis forces in 1941. In the Baltic States, Belarus, Ukraine, and Bessarabia, the NKVD and attached units of the Red Army massacred prisoners and political opponents before fleeing from the advancing Axis forces.

Deportations and Executions 1946-47 - Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians, Russians, Cossacks, and other nationalities and ethnicities were imprisoned or executed by the NKVD.

Siege of Budapest - During the Siege of Budapest, Hungary, some 40,000 civilians were killed and an estimated 50,000 women and girls were raped. Hungarian girls were kidnapped and taken to Red Army quarters, where they were imprisoned, repeatedly raped, and sometimes murdered. Embassy staff from neutral countries were captured and raped, as documented when Soviet soldiers attacked the Swedish legation in Germany.

Nemmersdorf, East Prussia - Nemmersdorf (today Mayakovskoye in Kaliningrad) was one of the first German settlements to fall to the advancing Red Army on October 22, 1944. It was recaptured by the Germans soon afterwards and the German authorities reported that the Red Army killed civilians there.

Invasion of East Prussia - War crimes committed by Soviet troops in the areas of Germany occupied by the Red Army.

Treuenbrietzen - Following the capture of the German city of Treuenbrietzen after fierce fighting. Over a period of several days at the end of April and beginning of May roughly 1000 inhabitants of the city were executed by Soviet troops.

Battle of Berlin - Mass rape committed by the Soviet troops.

Flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland during and after World War II - War crimes committed by Soviet troops in the areas of Germany occupied by the Red Army (Eastern and Central Germany), in addition to ethnic-German populations of German controlled, Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary.

Hungarian Revolution of 1956 - Soviet tanks fired indiscriminately at every building from which they believed themselves to be under fire.

Destruction of cities and looting - On many occasions, Soviet soldiers set fire to buildings, villages, or parts of cities, shooting anybody trying to extinguish the flames.

etc etc.

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These books can't be real proofs.
Of course. They are, after all, anti-Russian propaganda!

Quote:
East Europeans states declared war to USSR in 1941. They were punished for their crimes.
And there was me thinking that Soviets invaded Poland in 1939 therefore declaring war.

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Originally Posted by Mr Bricks View Post
I actually read an essay about this last spring, which was based on books about life in Berlin and Germany in 1945. None of these books are written by German authors for obvious reasons, but there are many great books by British and American authors. Berlin: The Downfall 1945 by Antony Beevor is a good one, although it mostly deals with the Soviets and of course leaves the rest of Germany unaccounted for.
Maybe youre talking about Operation Keelhaul?
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Old September 7th, 2010, 01:50 PM   #46
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Old September 7th, 2010, 01:54 PM   #47
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Old September 7th, 2010, 02:03 PM   #48
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Old September 7th, 2010, 02:16 PM   #49
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Old September 7th, 2010, 02:20 PM   #50
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But there were together with Germans declare war and invaded in USSR
Youve got it the wrong way round sweetheart it was Nazi Germany and The Soviet Union that invaded Poland TOGETHER. Your great motherland was an ally of the Nazis!

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??????? Hungarians were German allies. Hungatians took part in military agression. Tell me please how it possible to crushed Nazis from Budapest without Siege. Give me any link about rape.
Hungarian women and girls took part in military aggression? Really, what were they doing, raping Soviet soldiers?

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????? Germans were enemies of USSR. It was war between Germany and USSR.
They were also your friends for a few years, documents and treaties bearing signatures of Stalin prove that.

Besides that does not justify murder of civilians. Take Brits for instance they were bombed but British Army committed zero War Crimes.

Quote:
Execution of Nazis = crimes?
Erm execution of POWs is a crime, yes.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 02:25 PM   #51
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Old September 7th, 2010, 02:27 PM   #52
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Old September 7th, 2010, 02:32 PM   #53
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And for this reason Eastern European states joined to Nazis and invaded in USSR?
Hilarious. Russia invaded half of Europe = good. Half of Europe fights back = ******* Nazis.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 02:46 PM   #54
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El Greco

Sorry, I'm closed offtopic. It will be difficult to dispute with moderators.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 03:56 PM   #55
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P.S. I think that after all this discussion, I must go to Vienna and Berlin for the next three years and admire on the monuments to Soviet soldiers-liberators. I promise to upload my photos from this trip at this thread.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 07:55 PM   #56
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Don't bother explaining anything to El Greco. His Russia Derangement Syndrome has made him blind to the history of World War II.

Listen, boy, what the Soviets did will never come close to what the Nazis did and what they had plans to do (hell, even the Japanese behaved with a brutality that was a thousand times that of the Soviets, but you're probably one of those who thinks that the Kuril Islands were treacherously stolen from Japan).

The Nazis wanted to and did committ genocide upon "lesser peoples." And the population of Germany was content to just sit back and let it happen. Because we all know Lebensraum referred to France.

The Soviets may not have been the most angelic liberators, but they were liberators nonetheless.

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Old September 7th, 2010, 10:41 PM   #57
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^Why don´t you shut it you ignorant prick. It does not matter whether you kill 1 or 10 million people ffs. If you´re capable of genocide the scale of things is quite irrelevant. Both the Nazis and the Soviets terrorized Europe in a never before seen manner. People like Larisa are just too damn selfish and patriotic to admit it.

And blaming the Germans for letting it happen is just stupid. Quite hilarious coming from someone who lives in the most destructive and violent nation in the Western world. Why don´t you do something about Guantanamo, the "war on terror", the secret CIA prisons etc? Why don´t you fight the death penalty, social segregation and racism?
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Old September 7th, 2010, 11:16 PM   #58
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The Germans didn't just "let it happen," they did something worse. They wholeheartedly supported the guy who was doing it.

I look for intent before I make false moral equivalencies.

What next, the United States terrorises as much people as Al-Queda does?
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Old September 7th, 2010, 11:24 PM   #59
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And blaming the Germans for letting it happen is just stupid. Quite hilarious coming from someone who lives in the most destructive and violent nation in the Western world. Why don´t you do something about Guantanamo, the "war on terror", the secret CIA prisons etc? Why don´t you fight the death penalty, social segregation and racism?
Hes Russian.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 11:27 PM   #60
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Hes Russian.
With American citisenship.

But either way, someone is going to think that I'm some sheeple brainwashed by either Bloodymir Putler or Imam Barry Hussein Osamabama Soetoro.
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