Battle for Vienna - A small knowledge in history

[rheintram]

Originally Posted by El_Greco

They should tear down that monument to the Soviets.

No, it shouldn't be torn down. I don't want to defend Stalin or the Soviet Union, but your accusation of their misbehavior is gravely exaggerated. The truth is the Soviet Union paid a heavy price for the liberation of Europe, after it was attacked by Nazi Germany.

And now let's get back to the topic, which is really interesting!

[El_Greco]

No one denies Soviets paid a heavy price, but that does not justify what they did.

After all these years people still feel so strongly about the War and every country seemingly has its own version of history and any attempt to put the record straight is met with hysteria and wild accusations - if you say Soviets were bad you are suddenly a Russophobe and a Nazi, if you think Bombing of Dresden was a war crime youre anti-British and a Nazi, if you think Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a war crime youre anti-American and a Nazi. Bullshit, through and through.
The simple, plain, cold and uncomfortable fact is that all sides committed attrocities, it does not matter whether you killed 10 people or millions and until we accept this the reconciliation and healing process cannot start. Ignoring and pretending nothing ever happened is not a good idea either.

[LarisaCh]

Originally Posted by El_Greco

Besides that does not justify murder of civilians. Take Brits for instance they were bombed but British Army committed zero War Crimes.

Brits like any other nation didn't lost 24 million people in WWII (friends, parents, childrens, lovers). Every fourth Soviet citizen was killed or wounded at this WWII.

Listen, I didn't see this war during 4 years. I didn't see murders of my family, my friends and destruction of my hometown. I'll never understand what people felt at this time. And you will never understand it. Therefore I can't be judge for them.

Fortunately, Austrian and German politicans understand this.

[LarisaCh]

Originally Posted by El_Greco

Hilarious. Russia invaded half of Europe = good. Half of Europe fights back = fucking Nazis.

No. Germany and its allies (Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Italy, Croatia, Finland) were the aggressors for the USSR. Majority of them (except Romania and Finland) had no territorial claims to the Soviet government. They cooperated with the Nazis and wanted to get part of Soviet territory after the Nazi victory. There were no any legitimate reason for this agression. They did not want to help Poland, as you consider. If they won, Poland was not liberated. They were doing real crimes on Soviet territory.

Do Eastern Europeans remember about it? No, they speak about themselves as victims of Soviet agression and totally ignore own Nazi past. It's impossible to speak about historical truth ignoring this moment.

Originally Posted by El_Greco

Hilarious. Russia invaded half of Europe = good. Half of Europe fights back = fucking Nazis.

Nazis and Eastern Europeans invaded USSR = bad, USSR invaded half of Europe = bad. But it was answer on agression of Nazis and their Eastern European puppets. The world is not white/black.

[LarisaCh]

Originally Posted by El_Greco

Destruction of cities and looting - On many occasions, Soviet soldiers set fire to buildings, villages, or parts of cities

As it was very documented, Hitler ordered Germans to fight until death although it was so obvious that the Nazis were not able to stop the Soviet army. The Nazis gave weapons to inexperienced civilians (including women and children) and forced them to fight against the powerful Soviet machine. With such ideology it was impossible to beat Nazis without total destruction of their bastions and murders of civilians. Total destruction of cities is result of Nazi ideology.

[LarisaCh]

Originally Posted by El_Greco

Oh if things were that simple, heres a brilliant post by UK forumer made a few years ago, I hope he wont mind if I post it here -

Quote:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm

Question: Who was the Bloodiest Tyrant of the 20th Century?
Answer: We don't know.

That's probably the saddest fact of the Twentieth Century. There are so many candidates for the award of top monster that we can't decide between them. Whether it's Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong or Iosif Stalin is, quite frankly, anybody's guess.

For now, let's just skip over the whole margin of error thing -- reasonable people have studied the evidence and come up with wildly differing numbers. You're free to check my sources, but for now, trust me. I've studied the matter at great length and decided that the most likely death toll for these three are:

DEATHS TYRANT
40M = Mao
34M = Hitler
20M = Stalin

blah.. blah.. blah...........................................

This comparison is meaningless without reference to the period of dictatorship (29 years of Stalin vs. 12 years of Hitler) and the nature of crime (domestic crimes of Mao vs. racial and international crimes of Hitler).

You also need to understand the nature of power. The Nazis would have killed many more people if the Soviets did not beat them. For example, as you mentioned - during 29 years of Stalin's regime under all territory of Soviet Union were killed 20 million people, while Nazis only during 3 years of occupation of Western territories of Soviet Union were killed 14 million civilians, not speaking about soldiers. If you've already finished school, then you need to know about the term "proportion" and to assess possible damage.

[Mr Bricks]

Originally Posted by manrush

The Germans didn't just "let it happen," they did something worse. They wholeheartedly supported the guy who was doing it.

They didn´t have much of a choice now did they. Anyway only ten million people voted for Hitler - is everyone responsible? Even those who did not vote for him or fought the Nazi regime and payed for it with their lives?

Originally Posted by manrush

What next, the United States terrorises as much people as Al-Queda does?

Statistically...well...yes. Actually a lot more I suspect.

[beren_me]

Originally Posted by LarisaCh

No. Germany and its allies (Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Italy, Croatia, Finland) were the aggressors for the USSR. Majority of them (except Romania and Finland) had no territorial claims to the Soviet government. They cooperated with the Nazis and wanted to get part of Soviet territory after the Nazi victory. There were no any legitimate reason for this agression. They did not want to help Poland, as you consider. If they won, Poland was not liberated. They were doing real crimes on Soviet territory.

Do Eastern Europeans remember about it? No, they speak about themselves as victims of Soviet agression and totally ignore own Nazi past. It's impossible to speak about historical truth ignoring this moment.



Nazis and Eastern Europeans invaded USSR = bad, USSR invaded half of Europe = bad. But it was answer on agression of Nazis and their Eastern European puppets. The world is not white/black.

Actually, the agression of Finland and Rumania was a response to the Soviet annexations of 1940.And puppets were only Slovakia and Croatia

[beren_me]

Originally Posted by rheintram

No, it shouldn't be torn down. I don't want to defend Stalin or the Soviet Union, but your accusation of their misbehavior is gravely exaggerated. The truth is the Soviet Union paid a heavy price for the liberation of Europe, after it was attacked by Nazi Germany.

And now let's get back to the topic, which is really interesting!

There's an error in your judgment.Following your logic, some Eastern European countries should then errect statues of nazi/german soldiers for "liberating" them from soviet rule briefly.No, either all are being torn down and forbidden along with everysingle commie memorabilia , or gift shops should start selling nazi collectibles

[LarisaCh]

Originally Posted by beren_me

Actually, the agression of Finland and Rumania was a response to the Soviet annexations of 1940.And puppets were only Slovakia and Croatia

Actually, I mentioned it. But if the Finns refused to help the Nazis after the liberation of Karelia, that the Romanians after liberation of Moldavian land took part in the Battle of Stalingrad and in the battles at the Black Sea coast. Therefore, Finland got independent after the war, while Romania was been under Soviet control.

But my point that other nations were aggressors in this war and this fact should not be forgotten. Like Polish participation in the annexation of Czechoslovakia in 1938.

[El_Greco]

I love how youre trying to paint Russia as some kind of benign creature, a victim of aggression of its barbaric neighbours. It was violent and oppressive from the very begining and it not changed with the death of the last Tsar or fall of communism. It still is its old self, a bully trying to dominate others.

[LarisaCh]

Originally Posted by beren_me

There's an error in your judgment.Following your logic, some Eastern European countries should then errect statues of nazi/german soldiers for "liberating" them from soviet rule briefly.No, either all are being torn down and forbidden along with everysingle commie memorabilia , or gift shops should start selling nazi collectibles

This is not truth. Since 1990s there were erected many monuments to the local people who helped Nazis in the Eastern European states (especially in Ukraine or Baltic states). Every year in the Baltic states spend parades of veterans with Nazi attributes despite the fact that they are EU members.

I think that the history of each Eastern European states is not same. There are no such tendentions in Bulgaria, east of Germany or ex-Yugoslavian states. As I said before, Austrian goverment joined to Nazis and Austrian soldiers took part in the battles of German Army. Soviets liberated them from Nazis and leaved the country after 10 years. Therefore, I don't see reasons for destruction of this monument. However, other states have other history of relations with Soviets and must make decisions, which are based on their own history.

[Peloso]

Originally Posted by El_Greco

I love how youre trying to paint Russia as some kind of benign creature, a victim of aggression of its barbaric neighbours. It was violent and oppressive from the very begining and it not changed with the death of the last Tsar or fall of communism. It still is its old self, a bully trying to dominate others.

Well, what about Great Britain? Let's see... Ireland... slave trade... Nigeria & the other Africa colonies... India... Pakistan... Afghanistan... Opium for the Chinese... like 10 minutes ago, Iraq (1 million deaths from the embargo, probably some more hundred thousands from the war)... Afghanistan again...
Food for thought:
http://www.johannhari.com/2006/06/17...illed-millions
http://lilarajiva.wordpress.com/2007...ritish-empire/

[LarisaCh]

Originally Posted by El_Greco

I love how youre trying to paint Russia as some kind of benign creature, a victim of aggression of its barbaric neighbours. It was violent and oppressive from the very begining and it not changed with the death of the last Tsar or fall of communism. It still is its old self, a bully trying to dominate others.

Well, let teach history. Hungary was part of Austro-Hungarian Empire, not Russian Empire and got independence only after WWI. Czechoslovakia was never part of Russian Empire and haven't conflicts. Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia got its independence from Ottoman Empire as result of Russo-Turkish War 1877-78. As you can see, no one from this states (I don't speak about Germany and Italy) was part of Russian Empire or being opressed by Russians before 1930s.

[El_Greco]

Originally Posted by LarisaCh

Since 1990s there were erected many monuments to the local people who helped Nazis in the Eastern European states (especially in Ukraine or Baltic states). Every year in the Baltic states spend parades of veterans with Nazi attributes despite the fact that they are EU members.

Proof or you are nothing but a brainwashed, ignorant idiot.

I want photos of these Nazi attribute ladden parades. Im confident you will not be able to find any, since there has never been anything of the sort. Russia, however, is having very serious problems with Neo-Nazism indeed.

Originally Posted by LarisaCh

Well, let teach history. Hungary was part of Austro-Hungarian Empire, not Russian Empire and got independence only after WWI. Czechoslovakia was never part of Russian Empire and haven't conflicts. Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia got its independence from Ottoman Empire as result of Russo-Turkish War 1877-78. As you can see, no one from this states (I don't speak about Germany and Italy) was part of Russian Empire or being opressed by Russians before WWII.

We are not talking about Austrian Empire we are talking about Russia and since you missed it completely heres my post again -

I love how youre trying to paint Russia as some kind of benign creature, a victim of aggression of its barbaric neighbours. It was violent and oppressive from the very begining and it not changed with the death of the last Tsar or fall of communism. It still is its old self, a bully trying to dominate others.

Russia was oppressing Poles and Balts since the 18th century. Learn some history.

Originally Posted by Peloso

Well, what about Great Britain? Let's see... Ireland... slave trade... Nigeria & the other Africa colonies... India... Pakistan... Afghanistan... Opium for the Chinese... like 10 minutes ago, Iraq (1 million deaths from the embargo, probably some more hundred thousands from the war)... Afghanistan again...
Food for thought:
http://www.johannhari.com/2006/06/17...illed-millions
http://lilarajiva.wordpress.com/2007...ritish-empire/

And? I never denied any of it.

[Peloso]

Originally Posted by El_Greco

And? I never denied any of it.

I'm glad you admit that your (our) "democracy" is not better than any "authoritarianism". Or than Russia.

Originally Posted by El_Greco

Proof or you are nothing but a brainwashed, ignorant idiot.

Maybe you should think twice before making unpolite and uncivilized remarks. Also maybe you could learn to use Google.
http://www.google.it/images?q=nazi%2...w=1440&bih=732
Latvian MP took part in those marches, too (hint: add the word "MP" to the search).

[El_Greco]

Latvian flag is not Nazi attribute, so just as I thought Larisa was talking utter bullshit.

If you want to see parades with Nazi or Nazi inspired attributes look no further than Russia. Since you learned how to use google I trust that now you will do just that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_modern_Russia

[Mr Bricks]

Originally Posted by LarisaCh

Therefore, Finland got independent after the war, while Romania was been under Soviet control.

lol, you got your asses kicked in Finland. Hundreds of thousands of Red Army soldiers dead, thousands of tanks and hundreds of planes destroyed. Of course the Finnish defenses would have collapsed eventually but you miscredit Finland completely.

[LarisaCh]

Originally Posted by El_Greco

Proof or you are nothing but a brainwashed, ignorant idiot.

I want photos of these Nazi attribute ladden parades. Im confident you will not be able to find any, since there has never been anything of the sort. Russia, however, is having very serious problems with Neo-Nazism indeed.

Neo-Nazism was born not in USSR or Russia, but in Western Europe. And yes, Neo-Nazism is Russian problem. However, Neo-Nazis parades are forbidden and not welcomed by Russian goverment.

Originally Posted by El_Greco

We are not talking about Austrian Empire we are talking about Russia and since you missed it completely heres my post again -

I love how youre trying to paint Russia as some kind of benign creature, a victim of aggression of its barbaric neighbours. It was violent and oppressive from the very begining and it not changed with the death of the last Tsar or fall of communism. It still is its old self, a bully trying to dominate others.

Russia was oppressing Poles and Balts since the 18th century. Learn some history.

And? I never denied any of it.

I speak about real facts. Poles and Lithuanians was opressing Russians and Ukranians in 13th-17th centuries (including occupation of Ukranian lands and Russian cities). Learn some history. And I speak not about Poles, but about: Germans, Italians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Croats, Slovaks, who were agressors in WWII without any reasons. Therefore your point about pre-war oppressions of these nations is not working.

[LarisaCh]

Originally Posted by Mr Bricks

lol, you got your asses kicked in Finland. Hundreds of thousands of Red Army soldiers dead, thousands of tanks and hundreds of planes destroyed. Of course the Finnish defenses would have collapsed eventually but you miscredit Finland completely.

Finland lost its territory after Winter War and after WWII. Soviet got lands which were wanted to got before Winter War. I'm absolutely agree that it was Soviet agression and there were catastrophic results for USSR in military terms. But Finland lost in these wars. And they didn't lose its independence thanks to denial of Mannerheim to continue active operations after liberation of pre-Winter War territories.