Tampa General expansion on Kennedy Blvd

[JBrisco]

Originally Posted by Jasonhouse

Exactly what I was thinking almost word for word...

I pretended like I didn't hear it... It was much too absurd a comment for me to even give it acknowledgment. I mean how dumb are these people.
300 foot set back is no good any way you slice it. D to me that gap looks more than 200 ft wide. The lot is about 600 ft across and those side buildings are not equal with the middle lot, if they were equal it would be exactly or less than 200 ft

Now that I'm looking at it too there is a square created by the two boundary edges of the side buildings, remember that the building set back is 300ft. so to my eye the width is somewhere around 300ft.

[DShenise]

I guessed sensible minimums, as the rendering is at a less than useful (for this exercise) perspective angle. I still think its better than waiting a decade or so until something comes along that might be better. Its Tampa, during a recession, this isn't Singapore we are talking about. Maybe they could just stick it in an office park in north tampa or somewhere off I-75?

[JBrisco]

You're 100% right D to me thats where it looks like it belongs.
It'd be tough for anyone to eyeball that, I had to measure the lot, cos I wanted to be sure. I think I'm gonna write a blog about this on Connecting Tampa so I checked for myself.

[Jasonhouse]

Originally Posted by DShenise

I guessed sensible minimums, as the rendering is at a less than useful (for this exercise) perspective angle. I still think its better than waiting a decade or so until something comes along that might be better.

If they can't even meet the minimum urban standards that have been applied to the Kennedy corridor, then they can stick their proposal up their arse, and can instead occupy some of the ample vacant commercial space around town.

When the area was booming, design compromises were made because 'govt was understaffed' and 'delays cost money'... Now that the market is in a lull, suddenly the meme is 'we gotta take any shitty, cheap development we can get, because anything is better than nothing'... Yet through it all, the endgame is the same... The citizens of this city suffer a lesser quality of life, so that a handful of already wealthy developers can become even wealthier.

To hell with that bro. That's precisely how this city got so screwed up in the first place.

[TampaMike]

I got a email today from the Economic Development Admin. that they agree with my issue with the planning of the hospital site and have sent my email to every council member for them to see. Lets see if it has any influence though on their decision, I hope they do.

[DShenise]

There are several reasons why I'm trying to be sensible about this proposal, the first is that this is Tampa we are talking about and not some first tier city. Like it or not, its kind of a take it or leave it kind of thing and the city really has no bargaining power as the ability to go elsewhere is very prevalent. The city would than have a nice big empty, crime encouraging parcel to have to worry about for probably at least a decade. That is unless someone wants to open a nice cheesy Buy Here - Pay Here lot which is already permitted and couldn't be stopped. Two the design isn't that bad and the third and I think this is where most people don't appreciate what density means. Which city in the US is denser Somerville, Maine or San Francisco? Somerville, Maine. In fact Somerville denser than Philly, Chicago or DC. The city doesn't have to look like Shanghai to have density and an urban feel. See:

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/20...density-facts/
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/?p=42452
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/?p=40347

[JBrisco]

D, you're forgetting that the big issue here is the fact that there is a 300' gap between buildings, that is hardly urban. I guarantee you Somerville doesn't have any 300' gaps in the densest areas. Nobody is arguing here for a larger building. And even if they did a 300' gap in New England is different than a 300' gap in muggy swampland Florida

What I personally want is for pedestrians to have the visual and physical hierarchy in the Urban parts of Tampa. You can't do that when you are designing buildings in urban areas to be built for cars.
There's no way Tampa could even handle a ton of skyscrapers without developing better mass transit first.

If TGH really has such a HUGE problem with moving the parking then do this... PUT the park plaza on the street and parking behind that. PROBLEM SOLVED. If they are just being whiney cry babies about this then they can go f**k themselves, because this is not day care, this is a city. There are rules for a reason. EVEN HCC COMPLIED TO YBOR'S RULES! And HCC even claimed to be EXEMPT from the rules of building in Ybor

Aside from all that, Don't you think its strange that going down Kennedy goes from suburban style development to skyscrapers in just a few blocks?

[TampaMike]

I just don't want the city to be kicking itself in the ass 30-40 years from now because they allowed this project as the way it as while all the other projects that have been constructed in those future 40 years have been built for a urban area. Because honestly, there's enough ass kicking from the city with all the other decisions it has made.

What I don't understand is why can't they put the parking garage that is in the back of the render to the front, stack the two towers on it, and still have the drop-off/pick-up lane in the plans. They'll still have the building in the middle and then the back lot will be empty for a temporary park or something until they are in the need for more space.

[tampamobster21]

Originally Posted by smiley

Well - it is multi story. That is good. It does not face the street. THat sucks. There is a relatively big parking area in the front. That sucks.

While I do not think that this is the best usage of prime space, I do feel that it is a "decent" filler project. I wonder how this will be received by the other businesses around the area. I would think that a project such as this one would mess up the flow of traffic and create problems with the elderly trying to get in and out of this development. Possibly they will set up yet another traffic light on Kennedy Boulevard.

[TampaMike]

Or they can remove the entrance on Kennedy and have people enter from the side streets.

[I-275westcoastfl]

Best option!

[DShenise]

I'm only 38, so its not like I'm Gandalf with centuries of amassed knowledge. BUT, when it comes to large vacant tracts in "transitioning" areas, they are difficult to get anything moving in a good economy. Consider Gandy Blvd., half those craptastic properties sat doing nothing between 1999 and 07 when bankers were throwing money out the window to anyone with a lame ass scheme. Most likely, if TGH isn't permitted to do anything with it, it will sit fallow for 10 years +. That property combined with the other large parcels in the area make it much less than desirable. The knock-on effect for the projects that have been built will be significant. There is nothing like having a cracked ocean of asphalt and concrete next door to kill off potential townhome resales. Perfect is the enemy of good enough.

[Jasonhouse]

Originally Posted by DShenise

Perfect is the enemy of good enough.

Something is very, very wrong when 'illegal' equates to 'good enough'.

[Jasonhouse]

Originally Posted by smiley

Well - it is multi story. That is good. It does not face the street. THat sucks. There is a relatively big parking area in the front. That sucks.

A really stupid layout, which is seriously helped by simply rotating the hotel to front Kennedy, and rotating drop off/loading area so that the complex's traffic uses Willow and the street light at the Kennedy/Willow intersection (at the SE corner of the parcel) for vast majority of access into the site... The current plan would have traffic piling up in front of this complex trying to cross Kennedy, just a block from a traffic light with turn lanes and everything. Seriously, how stupid can these people get?

With the hotel and complex entrance rotated, the center of the complex opening onto Kennedy can be dedicated to pedestrians, with a little plaza flanked by perhaps 2-4 total storefronts for a cafe, gift shop and so on, in the base of the hotel and office tower.

I little example I whipped up real quick in sketchup...

As you can see, minor tweaking of the layout and mass of the buildings yields pretty much any size of drop off/loading area one could imagine, while still leaving room for some features they don't have, such as all-handicapped surface parking flanking Willow (right in front of the building), as well as enough space for some surface parking behind the hotel to serve the shops.

This parcel is huge and it's a blank slate. The developer's assertion that they can't do any better than what they have proposed to the city is ridiculous.

[I-275westcoastfl]

Originally Posted by Jasonhouse

A really stupid layout, which is seriously helped by simply rotating the hotel to front Kennedy, and rotating drop off/loading area so that the complex's traffic uses Willow and the street light at the Kennedy/Willow intersection (at the SE corner of the parcel) for vast majority of access into the site... The current plan would have traffic piling up in front of this complex trying to cross Kennedy, just a block from a traffic light with turn lanes and everything. Seriously, how stupid can these people get?

With the hotel and complex entrance rotated, the center of the complex opening onto Kennedy can be dedicated to pedestrians, with a little plaza flanked by perhaps 2-4 total storefronts for a cafe, gift shop and so on, in the base of the hotel and office tower.

I little example I whipped up real quick in sketchup...

As you can see, minor tweaking of the layout and mass of the buildings yields pretty much any size of drop off/loading area one could imagine, while still leaving room for some features they don't have, such as all-handicapped surface parking flanking Willow (right in front of the building), as well as enough space for some surface parking behind the hotel to serve the shops.

This parcel is huge and it's a blank slate. The developer's assertion that they can't do any better than what they have proposed to the city is ridiculous.

That is a reasonable layout and I can't believe the city wouldn't at least expect that if not more. But then again this is Tampa the same city that has 40% rebuilt highway as the gateway to a downtown which is full of parking and empty lots and which got fairly insignificant projects while most of Florida got at least some decent ones. The same city that thinks every subdivision should have a traffic light or pushes so hard to improve the quality of life. Sorry but Tampa will always be a city of mediocrity which is why I plan to leave it, sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

[JBrisco]

Tampa is a very corrupt city... That is an extremely difficult hurdle to jump. But Tampa has always been corrupt, I mean the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office ran guns for Castro back in the day.... What more do you expect from these greedy shrewd business men who have shaped Tampa into this shitty developer friendly suburban city.

I think the douches in Tampa who are ruining the city know what they are doing, and they're only doing it to make a buck at the public's expense.

[ATampaArnold]

Yeah that parking area in the front sucks. I do like your modification jasonhouse

[jonknee]

Has anyone actually confirmed that the rendering is facing Kennedy? It's not labeled that I can see.

[Jasonhouse]

^Yes, the real rendering is definitely looking north.... My example is looking west.

You can tell the orientation by the wide pavement in front, and the narrow road on the left side, closely flanked by a parking lot. (which is how Oregon is)... Plus, you can tell by the shadows being cast by the buildings that this perspective is looking north.

[Jasonhouse]

Originally Posted by ATampaArnold

Yeah that parking area in the front sucks. I do like your modification jasonhouse

It's not parking in the real rendering... It's ingress/egress, loading zones and landscaping.