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Old October 5th, 2014, 12:31 AM   #221
greg_christine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
It's just a good tool for development. No matter which way you cut it, BRT isn't going to help appreciate land values the way LRT can, and that's what many cities are after these days.
There are differing opinions on this. Most are biased either pro-rail or pro-bus. Here's one that is pro-bus.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcma...nd-streetcars/
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Old October 5th, 2014, 01:07 AM   #222
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And here is an excellent post debunking that report.

https://www.raisethehammer.org/artic...tment_than_brt
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Old October 5th, 2014, 03:44 AM   #223
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Again from a biased source.
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Old October 5th, 2014, 04:12 AM   #224
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The biggest problem that I have with these claims that transit projects can be rationalized based on commercial investment is that it doesn't always work. The Blue Line along Howard Street in Baltimore is a classic example. There were several blocks of vacant store fronts when I visited a few years ago. I just looked at Google street view and saw that it remains the same way.



Transit lines are for moving people. Attracting commercial investment shouldn't be the justification for a transit line.
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Old October 5th, 2014, 04:33 AM   #225
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I took the photo in the previous post in April 2007. The following view is dated July 2013. Fortunately, Baltimore's Blue Line does a reasonably good job of moving people, though the Howard Street section is slow. Commercial development wasn't one of the promises behind its construction more than 20 years ago. Actually, the construction of the Blue Line eliminated much of the on-street parking along this section of the line, which might be part of the reason businesses are suffering.


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Old October 5th, 2014, 05:21 AM   #226
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The Howard St corridor went downhill after Hutzler's and other retail stores went bankrupted. Not to mention the changing demographics, from working class whites to working poor blacks.
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Old October 5th, 2014, 06:16 AM   #227
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I actually got the chance to Ride this portion of the light rail recently. It looked like the area was improving (let's not forget that the line was built when Baltimore was spiraling into decline). And I did notice some development as well



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Old October 5th, 2014, 02:02 PM   #228
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When I visited Baltimore, Howard Street was dead, but Fells Point was booming. Fells Point isn't even on a rail transit line. The Blue Line has been in existence for more than twenty years, so it isn't as though there hasn't been enough time to see the economic effects of rail transit.

Back in the 1980s, every large east coast city had a ghetto area with crumbling buildings, low incomes, and high crime. Boston had Roxbury. New York had Harlem, the South Bronx, and Newark. Philadelphia had North Philadelphia and Camden. One thing all these areas had in common is that they were served by rail transit. The idea that rail transit brings commercial development is relatively new. It hasn't always worked in the past.

The main point I'm trying to make is that transit projects should be justified based on how well they move people. When economic development is presented as the justification for a transit project, the public should be suspicious.
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Old October 5th, 2014, 02:31 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
The cold hard reality is that rail transit systems typically rely on feeder networks of bus routes.
Not necessarily. Tram lines but also inner city subway in Vienna usually don't. Light rail corridors in the US if stations are positioned in moderate distances, do not either, along the very corridor. But of course feeder lines will bring people from beyond the very corridor to the stations.

BRT has some advantages like offering the possibility of transfer free connection to the centre from a lot of different low density places. If the BRT infrastructure is serious and well not a PR lie that can also work decently. On the downside however these systems are quite space consuming in the central parts and not an excessively attractive thing to look at with big road appearance (4 lanes, station buildings and then probably additional public roads on the sides, leaving a huge imprint). The infrastructure needs a lot of maintenance because of very high heavy vehicle frequencies but from a customer perspective the system can get also very complex and hard to understand. I just think about Dublin. It doesn't have BRT but relies a lot on direct bus lines. It is almost impossible to grasp the network. BRT hosts those lines in a more efficient setting but if it is to retain the exchange free journey it will also create this overcomplexity of lines.

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Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
BRT also offers route flexibility that fixed rail systems cannot match.
You call that an advantage? I call it a major disadavantage. Buildings are long term investments, they need long term transit options for reliable planning. A highly flexible transit service could be realigned tomorrow. That is the opposite of reliability.


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High quality BRT and especially those with totally segregated bus-ways offer the high frequency, speed, and convenience that people want and in many cases no rail system can provide.
At the full costs close to a comparable rail system, at least if its fully segregated, with comparable station buildings, necessary takeover lanes and you are considering full construction (including roads etc of course) and maintenance costs.
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Old October 5th, 2014, 02:41 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
You can't have a lot of ridership without having a robust system in place first.

They should develop more TOD as well.
This is disturbing:

Why Denver's Housing Crunch Might Cost the City Its Millennials

...Denver is suffering from a crushing shortage of available condominiums, a cheaper option that often forms a bridge for young people between apartment renting and buying a stand-alone home.

Condo construction in Denver has plunged since the state Legislature passed a bill in 2010 making it easier for condo owners to sue their builders. Lawmakers were reacting to a spate of horror stories about shoddily-built condo buildings when they passed the law, which allows homeowner associations to file class-action lawsuits against builders if two or more units in their building have defects.

Since then, condo construction in Denver has basically stopped. In 2006 and 2007, condos and townhouses made up about one-fourth of newly built homes. In 2012, they made up 2 percent, the market research firm Metrostudy told the Legislature last year.

"We went around and talked to these big national builders and said, 'How many condos did you build last year? None. How many did you build this year? None. How many are you going to build next year? None," says Tom Clark, CEO of the Metro Denver Economic Development Corp. "Well, if you're trying to draw millennials, that denser urban experience is a crucial part of their rite of passage."

The Denver-area mayors are teaming up with the local business community to roll back some of the provisions of the law, but insiders privately acknowledge that they will have little traction in the Legislature because powerful members have squelched similar efforts in the past two years.
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Old October 5th, 2014, 07:48 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
When I visited Baltimore, Howard Street was dead, but Fells Point was booming. Fells Point isn't even on a rail transit line. The Blue Line has been in existence for more than twenty years, so it isn't as though there hasn't been enough time to see the economic effects of rail transit.

Back in the 1980s, every large east coast city had a ghetto area with crumbling buildings, low incomes, and high crime. Boston had Roxbury. New York had Harlem, the South Bronx, and Newark. Philadelphia had North Philadelphia and Camden. One thing all these areas had in common is that they were served by rail transit. The idea that rail transit brings commercial development is relatively new. It hasn't always worked in the past.

The main point I'm trying to make is that transit projects should be justified based on how well they move people. When economic development is presented as the justification for a transit project, the public should be suspicious.
Yeah, also of the cities you mention had rail transit in ALOT of areas. So there is little to no correlation between transit, and decline. Furthermore, the idea of rail transit improving areas being much more of a recent phenomenon having more to do with the likes of millennials makes much of your previous argument invalid (it's not the 80s anymore, look at Harlem now) . Furthermore, many of these transit systems have been correlated with gentrification in cities like in Chicago (specifically along the red and blue lines in RECENT years). To conclude, no it has not always worked, but yes it works perfectly under modern circumstances.
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Last edited by CNB30; October 5th, 2014 at 08:02 PM.
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Old October 5th, 2014, 11:51 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
... To conclude, no it has not always worked, but yes it works perfectly under modern circumstances.
??? And yet there is Howard Street, where rail transit exists today (under modern circumstances), and yet there is no investment.
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Old October 6th, 2014, 12:02 AM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
The biggest problem that I have with these claims that transit projects can be rationalized based on commercial investment is that it doesn't always work. The Blue Line along Howard Street in Baltimore is a classic example. There were several blocks of vacant store fronts when I visited a few years ago. I just looked at Google street view and saw that it remains the same way.



Transit lines are for moving people. Attracting commercial investment shouldn't be the justification for a transit line.
And yet... You posted a report claiming BRT attracts more development than LRT.

That pic is very similar to a pic you posted a few years ago. Did you get that off of Google Streets? Did google update the streetview for that area?
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Old October 6th, 2014, 12:15 AM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
??? And yet there is Howard Street, where rail transit exists today (under modern circumstances), and yet there is no investment.
I just showed you examples of new development on Howard st

And if I may repeat myself, I was on the line only a few months ago, and it seemed to be a lot better than in your one picture of the worst block 8 years ago, yes it still had a long ways to go, but overall, much better than in your picture.

Furthermore, why just keep looking at Baltimore, and instead focus on some more relevant examples to this thread in Denver, which are only a handful of the many more outside of LoDo, which pretty much is LRT development to the extreme.







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Old October 6th, 2014, 12:25 AM   #235
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Howard Street July 2013.

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Old October 6th, 2014, 01:00 AM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
Howard Street July 2013.
like I said, It looks better, and more cleaned up, but a long way to go.

Anyway, here is another shot from mid 2011




oh yeah and,

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore....html?page=all
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Old October 6th, 2014, 01:10 AM   #237
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Some claim, that only the existence of the LRT line speeds the developement up all the way along its route.
But even here in Denver it doesnt work like that in every location.
10th & Osage stn. has a LRT line since years now, and the area looks pretty poor and quite empty.
[IMG]http://i61.************/f50h1e.jpg[/IMG]

Also the newest West Line doesnt have much progress yet.
Looks like the LRT is just one factor in that matter.
[IMG]http://i59.************/izydm8.jpg[/IMG]
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Old October 6th, 2014, 01:51 AM   #238
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Quote:
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Some claim, that only the existence of the LRT line speeds the developement up all the way along its route.
But even here in Denver it doesnt work like that in every location.
10th & Osage stn. has a LRT line since years now, and the area looks pretty poor and quite empty.
First off, i'm not saying that as soon as the line is completed, everything is built. Neither am I saying that there is some sudden boom at EVERY single stop. After all, Northern Arlinton in DC took 40 years to get to where it is now, and I can assure you, Balston was about as undeveloped as some of the LRT stops 10 years after the metro came.

Honestly, I feel like I'm circle talking, and answering stupid questions here.
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Old October 6th, 2014, 02:06 AM   #239
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Quote:
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First off, i'm not saying that as soon as the line is completed, everything is built. Neither am I saying that there is some sudden boom at EVERY single stop. After all, Northern Arlinton in DC took 40 years to get to where it is now, and I can assure you, Balston was about as undeveloped as some of the LRT stops 10 years after the metro came.

...
Howard Street has had light rail since 1992.
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Old October 6th, 2014, 03:32 AM   #240
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The Houston light rail line has had mixed success creating new infill on empty lots as well.

The Red Line I believe was justified as being some kind of improvement to the bus mess that used to exist in the Med Center area. And these days ridership on the MetroRail system is growing.

But only recently has there been any exciting development along it downtown and in midtown. There was the infamous midtown CVS pharmacy, a stock suburban design with surface parking plopped on an urban block, turning its backside to the light rail route. Or the super block also in midtown that was 2 blocks of empty buildable land that sat fallow for years and years.
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