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Old September 6th, 2010, 01:44 PM   #41
g.spinoza
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In any case, there is no such thing as a pipeline that spills waste at 30.000 ft altitude! That is a hoax
Are you sure? Every time I go to the bathroom in an airplane I can see the suff being sucked from the toilet, exploiting the pressure gradient between the inside and the outside...
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Old September 6th, 2010, 01:48 PM   #42
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Are you sure? Every time I go to the bathroom in an airplane I can see the suff being sucked from the toilet, exploiting the pressure gradient between the inside and the outside...
LOL. It's a vacuum device. You can find them at the nearest Frecciarossa.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 02:48 PM   #43
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After a few minutes of googling, it seems that planes do dump used wash basin water while in the air, and while they don't and can't normally dump toilet waste, there have been incidents where it had leaked out and dropped down below.

So it's not physically impossible for something from the toilets to fall out of the plane like you claim.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 04:43 PM   #44
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In any case, there is no such thing as a pipeline that spills waste at 30.000 ft altitude! That is a hoax
Ever heard of Google?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_ice_(aircraft)
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Old September 6th, 2010, 05:20 PM   #45
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He's still right in that commercial airliners do not have a designated facility to dump lavatory waste in flight.

From your link:

"There were at least 27 documented incidents of blue ice impacts in the United States between 1979 and 2003."

That's a laughable figure. How many seconds pass before 27 planes have taken off throughout the US? Not many, I suspect. It's an absolutely tiny figure. And it concerns accidents.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 05:26 PM   #46
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That's a laughable figure. How many seconds pass before 27 planes have taken off throughout the US? Not many, I suspect. It's an absolutely tiny figure. And it concerns accidents.
That's just about documented accidents. God knows how many undocumented accidents of the kind happened.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 05:33 PM   #47
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Yes I'm sure leaks in airplanes can go undetected for very long periods of time.

Doesn't change the fact that when you flush a toilet on a plane, it doesn't slide down outside through a tube. Nor does the vacuum pull in the lavatory when you flush constitute explosive decompression.

Let's maintain a sense of realism here, shall we?
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Old September 7th, 2010, 02:18 AM   #48
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Almost all Austrian trains have closed circuit toilets these days. The result is, that many times toilets have to be closed and shut down because some smart ass (usually women) decided to flush down stuff that shouldn't be flushed (and it even says so everywhere in the toilet). The result of this can sometimes be really nasty.

The old style toilets don't have that problem. And honestly, how big of a problem was it really? It's not like people are constantly shitting while they are on the train and nobody did it while a train was in a station - except for a few gross and uncivilized persons.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 03:04 AM   #49
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I'm amazed to see how some forumers are tolerant of having waste dumped on tracks. A lack on civility and sense of cleanliness!

Imagine if buses spilled their bathroom waste (those who have toilets) over the highways, so your car (maybe the door lock or the windshield...) would just occasionally get hit by waste. Gross, unacceptable. It doesn't matter it is "natural": 300 years ago much of human waste was tossed out over windows on our beloved European cities.

Many third-World cities still have raw sewage running on the middle of streets in slums and other poor areas. That is not only filthy, but unhealthy. Diseases proliferate where sewage encounter people, kids, animals. Flies and worms can proliferate there. We would find that situation inadmissible here in Europe.

Why tracks would be an exception? Should urban trams also have toilets spilling waste in Downtown Frankfurt (or any other European city FTM)?
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Old September 7th, 2010, 04:34 AM   #50
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Those examples aren't really relevant. Waste in the middle of a highway can easily be run over and spread by passing vehicles, whereas if a train's wheels are in a position to hit waste sitting in the middle of the tracks, then dirtiness is the least of its worries. Urban trams don't and shouldn't have toilets, I don't know why you even brought them up.

The types of trains that do carry toilets run on track isolated from the general public, and most countries have laws forbidding trespassing on railways, so the only people who should be directly encountering dumped waste are track workers. It's not pleasant, but someone is going to have to deal with it sooner or later no matter which method you use.

Dumped waste is only really a problem at stations. Going off a previous post about conductors locking toilets at stations, maybe a cheaper solution than retrofitting old stock with retention tanks is installing a central locking system that locks the toilets when the train is stopped at a station?

In any case, this is hardly an urgent problem and most of the world's railways have far better things to spend money on. It will gradually go away with the natural process of train replacement, so the simplest way to deal with it(and bring in a host of other benefits as well) is accelerating the procurement of new rolling stock.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 04:43 AM   #51
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The types of trains that do carry toilets run on track isolated from the general public, and most countries have laws forbidding trespassing on railways, so the only people who should be directly encountering dumped waste are track workers. It's not pleasant, but someone is going to have to deal with it sooner or later no matter which method you use.
One thing is emptying a retention tank at a maintenance area. The employees in charge of that operation will be wearing protective equipment, and they will empty it with suction hooks or other likewise method into sewage collector on site or into waste trucks. It's very, very different than a situation where the regular folk cutting grass alongside the tracks, or working on the temporary closed parallel track gets hit by God-knows-why.

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Dumped waste is only really a problem at stations. Going off a previous post about conductors locking toilets at stations, maybe a cheaper solution than retrofitting old stock with retention tanks is installing a central locking system that locks the toilets when the train is stopped at a station?
Not really feasible in many situations. It would take valuable time of conductors work to do that. Some trains are long, have 6-8 washrooms, and stop every other 20 minutes or so. You would have to have almost a full-time employee whose only function would be closing and opening washroom doors - which would be non-sense, as we need LESS and not MORE people working in railway operations.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 09:00 AM   #52
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What is actually the problem here? All new rolling stock has retention toilets, as does all refurbished stock. The problem, as far as it exists, is thus being dealt with.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 01:52 PM   #53
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I'm amazed to see how some forumers are tolerant of having waste dumped on tracks. A lack on civility and sense of cleanliness!
I'm amazed some people care so much about this. The waste decomposes very quickly and is completely natural. If you ask me the system is way better for the environment than chemical or other mechanical solutions.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 02:18 PM   #54
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I'm amazed some people care so much about this. The waste decomposes very quickly and is completely natural. If you ask me the system is way better for the environment than chemical or other mechanical solutions.
Why don't we still use outhouses instead of bathrooms whose waste are collected and sent for treatment then?

Sewage processing exists for a reason. And the rail tracks are not dump sites. You don't litter (or ideally shouldn't litter) a road side, gosh, not even should you let your dog's poo on a curbside, why tracks can be the trash bin of our transportation network?

As an intermediary solution, I suggest then simply abolishing non-closed train toilets. People can use toilets on stations and so. Most older stock is used for shorter journeys, it should be no problem. Then you retrofit one or two bathrooms per train set only, and make them paid toilets with coins or so (like € 1)
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Old September 7th, 2010, 03:47 PM   #55
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Europe has the highest environmental standards in the world! Those of you who make such a big fuss about these toilets are simply ridiculous.

And to those from South-America who complain about European hygiene: Ever been in a favela or any big South-American city for that matter? Where are the sewers, the waste-water-treatment plants? Where are the water closets and fresh water showers in every single building? Where are they?

Europe has the highest quality of life in the World! Look at the top twenty in the human development index and look where these countries are mostly located!

So stop being ridiculous.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 05:18 PM   #56
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One thing is emptying a retention tank at a maintenance area. The employees in charge of that operation will be wearing protective equipment, and they will empty it with suction hooks or other likewise method into sewage collector on site or into waste trucks. It's very, very different than a situation where the regular folk cutting grass alongside the tracks, or working on the temporary closed parallel track gets hit by God-knows-why.
Well, once we hear about a massive outrage from track workers or a study about the effect working around dumped waste is having on their health, you might have a point. But as far as I know we haven't, so it seems they accept it as part of their job, one that isn't exactly clean or easy to start with. They also probably know that the problem is much smaller than it used to be and is going away with new trains.

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Not really feasible in many situations. It would take valuable time of conductors work to do that. Some trains are long, have 6-8 washrooms, and stop every other 20 minutes or so. You would have to have almost a full-time employee whose only function would be closing and opening washroom doors - which would be non-sense, as we need LESS and not MORE people working in railway operations.
Hence why I suggested a central system. One that locks all the toilets at the flip of a switch from the driver's dashboard, or a panel accessed by the conductor. I would even suggest an automatic mechanism, although that might be going too far for something that's suppose to be a stop-gap measure until the old stock is replaced.

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Why don't we still use outhouses instead of bathrooms whose waste are collected and sent for treatment then?

Sewage processing exists for a reason. And the rail tracks are not dump sites. You don't litter (or ideally shouldn't litter) a road side, gosh, not even should you let your dog's poo on a curbside, why tracks can be the trash bin of our transportation network?
Because unlike road sides and curb sides, main line train tracks are isolated from the general public. Would you care so much about how clean an airport's runway is? Don't forget any building's maintenance areas, industrial sites, the vast countryside, etc. etc.

If the concept of somewhere being dirty, even places most people never go, disturbs you so much then you'll go crazy very fast.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 08:18 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Apoc89 View Post
Hence why I suggested a central system. One that locks all the toilets at the flip of a switch from the driver's dashboard, or a panel accessed by the conductor. I would even suggest an automatic mechanism, although that might be going too far for something that's suppose to be a stop-gap measure until the old stock is replaced.
Will it let people leave the toilet if they are already in there when it locks?
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Old September 7th, 2010, 08:47 PM   #58
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E
And to those from South-America who complain about European hygiene: Ever been in a favela or any big South-American city for that matter? Where are the sewers, the waste-water-treatment plants? Where are the water closets and fresh water showers in every single building? Where are they?

Europe has the highest quality of life in the World! Look at the top twenty in the human development index and look where these countries are mostly located!
Chill out mate. I myself have lived for a while in South America. I never said raw sewage was acceptable (even mentioned it as something disgusting).

The fact some slums have raw sewage and people lacks sanitation only adds to my rant that we, with high safety standards for workplaces, should outlaw this kinds of pre-War feature.

Otherwise it would be like saying we don't need ERTMS-2 because in country xyz they sill use telegraph poles and tokens to control rail traffic.

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Well, once we hear about a massive outrage from track workers or a study about the effect working around dumped waste is having on their health, you might have a point. But as far as I know we haven't, so it seems they accept it as part of their job, one that isn't exactly clean or easy to start with. They also probably know that the problem is much smaller than it used to be and is going away with new trains.
I do not suppose their job is clean, but one thing is chemical stuff like grease, dirt, oils. Other stuff is human waste, which is a biological hazard of higher order IMO... but just filth and disgusting and non-modern. The kind of thing I associate with places with lower standards of civility, hence no place in Europe.


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If the concept of somewhere being dirty, even places most people never go, disturbs you so much then you'll go crazy very fast.
Nope. That is not the case. I just want to do away with what is a stinky, disgusting and hazardous heritage from the pre-War era of hygiene standards.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 10:36 PM   #59
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I'm amazed to see how some forumers are tolerant of having waste dumped on tracks. A lack on civility and sense of cleanliness!
I'm amazed some people are making such an enormous song and dance over it.

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Imagine if buses spilled their bathroom waste (those who have toilets) over the highways, so your car (maybe the door lock or the windshield...) would just occasionally get hit by waste. Gross, unacceptable.
Completely irrelevant comparison. You won't be (or shouldn't be) driving your car on any railroad tracks, and so you won't be getting any shit on your windshield. And neither will any train.

Quote:
And the rail tracks are not dump sites. You don't litter (or ideally shouldn't litter) a road side, gosh, not even should you let your dog's poo on a curbside, why tracks can be the trash bin of our transportation network?
Birds crap all over our roads. Should we ban birds?
Cows do it all over their meadows, and the farmer has to walk through that too. Should we give cows diapers now?

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As an intermediary solution, I suggest then simply abolishing non-closed train toilets.
I have another solution: how about we get our acts together and stop making such a drama out of something as benign as this?
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Old September 7th, 2010, 11:53 PM   #60
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>>> I do not suppose their job is clean, but one thing is chemical stuff like
>>> grease, dirt, oils. Other stuff is human waste, which is a biological
>>> hazard of higher order IMO... but just filth and disgusting and non-
>>> modern. The kind of thing I associate with places with lower standards
>>> of civility, hence no place in Europe.

Well I would not be surprised that skin contact with grease, oil, and other
chemicals resulting from oil cracking is actually far more dangerous to your
health than the occasional contact with human waste. How the hell are all
those mothers surviving, after having changed the diapers of their children
three times daily, for more than a year ???

>>> Nope. That is not the case. I just want to do away with what is a
>>> stinky, disgusting and hazardous heritage from the pre-War era of
>>> hygiene standards.

Ah, I see. Typical american hypocrisy. Everywhere they go it must be nice
and clean, but they don't care the least bit for the the heaps of poisonous
crap their lifestyle is generating everywhere else on the planet. Remember
Bophal ? Union Carbide, US chemical company, may be producing this blue
fluid that you want our train toilets to be cleaned up with ???
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