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Old September 11th, 2010, 01:43 AM   #101
Nexis
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I am not irrationally attacking rail transport, just holding it to a higher bar, like air transport.
Just admit , you hate Rail , you want it all ripped up......ugh you ppl disgust me get with the 21st Century.......You wouldn't like the US , the Midwest and Northeast / Mid Atlantic are slowly rebuilding are Railway networks. Ridership is up on Amtrak because ppl are sick of being herded like Cattle through airports... Its very hard to get into a cab of a train here. If its a loco , its 2 locks and 2 guys per cab. Trains are controlled on the main lines and i beleave the newer trains have kill switches.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 12:30 PM   #102
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Let me put this way: I have nothing against tracks and trains, they are quite cool as engineering works/products.

What I have against is the idea that public transportation, anywhere in the World, should be the primary form of transport of people, instead of private transportation. What I fiercely oppose is the idea that transport is a right, not a service, except if it is private transport - then it is a right to buy, drive, and have the government build infrastructure for us.

However, contrary to what I usually read against me here, I don't judge one's character or moral values based on his/her transportation choices. It doesn't matter if one rides a subway or drive a Hummer, it's just a choice after all. Some people here (and a few in the real World) seem to pre-judge anyone who doesn't agree with their dream city thoughts, like assuming that because I will bypass, not use and undermine (e.g., if I had a company and had a choice, I'd put it on the most possible inconvenient place for PT) public transport whenever possible, I'm a "bad person" or so.

It's funny some of those reactions. I'm not campaigning against anyone, I'm resisting the use of taxpayer's money to fund a communist, collective and anti-individualist approach to move people inside cities and metro areas, even if individualism is the basic, core value of our modern society. But I don't assume people who use PT are communists or against individual mobility rights. They are just choosing to ride what they want, so unless a government is promoting social engineering to "get people off their cars", I have nothing against other non-road modes of transportation. That is all.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 01:25 PM   #103
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e.g., if I had a company and had a choice, I'd put it on the most possible inconvenient place for PT
Are you serious?
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Old September 11th, 2010, 02:42 PM   #104
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Are you serious?
I need to elaborate: I was supposing a company whose micro-location is irrelevant (a factory, an IT company, a business that doesn't draw costumers passing on its storefront windows, or one that sells only to other companies by internet/phone).

In such scenario, I'd like to make my employees drive to work and, albeit in a small scale, contribute to increase traffic on roads (motivating more road construction) and reduce ridership on local PT system, it the local PT system is subsidized unfairly (vehicles, not only tracks - which is fine - or if it is funded by money paid by drivers, parking taxes etc.)
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Old September 11th, 2010, 04:59 PM   #105
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It's funny some of those reactions. I'm not campaigning against anyone, I'm resisting the use of taxpayer's money to fund a communist, collective and anti-individualist approach to move people inside cities and metro areas, even if individualism is the basic, core value of our modern society.
I think public transport is a lot more capitalist than private transport. The impetus to build railways historically mostly came from the private sector, whereas roads have almost always been provided by the state. Railways were invented by the free market English. Freeways were first implemented by the Italian fascists. In post war europe the socialists were in favor of a car for everyone. After all, on the roads everyone is equal, whereas trains then still had three classes.
Public transport is an example of the division of labor, inherent in a modern, capitalist industrialist society, applied to transportation. The private car is actually a return to pre industrial times, to the principle of doing everything yourself. Transporting yourself is like growing your own food. Two things I avoid doing.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 05:32 PM   #106
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It's funny that one of the worlds most successful rail nations runs all of its railways on a "for profit" basis - Japan. The JR companies and the plethora of private companies also run in a very capitalist manner.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 06:43 PM   #107
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So Suburbanist... you are opposed to state funds going to the railways, but it won't be a problem for you if those same funds go to the road network? Either way, there's state money flowing to a form of transport - but the rail form is more efficient than roads are when it comes to the number of people per square meter that can be transported.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 07:48 PM   #108
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So Suburbanist... you are opposed to state funds going to the railways, but it won't be a problem for you if those same funds go to the road network? Either way, there's state money flowing to a form of transport - but the rail form is more efficient than roads are when it comes to the number of people per square meter that can be transported.
Let me summarize as I always do:

I believe that transport infrastructure - runways, highways/rods, rail tracks should or could be maintained by the government as part of its functions (since a notion of "government" from a "state" exists).

My angry is against the operation of vehicles, be them airplanes (so I'm happy most ex-state airlines have been privatized), buses/trucks or train sets.

Let the government build the tracks and maintain that, directly or indirectly, then let COMPETITION (not coordination/collaboration/planning) determine who runs what over the runways, rail tracks and road lanes.

It is not about being against tracks per se, it is about being against government running vehicles itself, setting schedules and fares on a monopolistic way and spilling waste on tracks.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 09:26 PM   #109
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In such scenario, I'd like to make my employees drive to work and, albeit in a small scale, contribute to increase traffic on roads (motivating more road construction) and reduce ridership on local PT system
Wow. That's one of the most screwed up things I've read in a while...
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Old September 11th, 2010, 10:08 PM   #110
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Let the government build the tracks and maintain that, directly or indirectly, then let COMPETITION (not coordination/collaboration/planning) determine who runs what over the runways, rail tracks and road lanes.
This distort idea of market rules and lack of coordination is one of the reasons of Italy having one of the worst public transport systems in Western Europe, that absorb a lot of money without carrying the traffic it could have.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 11:50 PM   #111
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BTW, why no x-rays and profiling and screening for every car at every junction? Just to make the playground even. Even in that case, the car would be the most attractive?
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Old September 12th, 2010, 12:51 AM   #112
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This distort idea of market rules and lack of coordination is one of the reasons of Italy having one of the worst public transport systems in Western Europe, that absorb a lot of money without carrying the traffic it could have.
Italy doesn't need a robust public transport system. Italy is a country full of people who love "la macchina" and use them (cars) extensively. However, where feasible we have nice public transportation:

(1) brand new Torino-Salerno high-speed rail axis (I know, diretissima Firenze-Roma completed on 80's etc. etc.)

(2) expanding subway systems in Torino, Milano, Roma and Napoli

(3) nice and fancy tramways in some areas of heavy and dense people traffic in Firenze and other cities

(4) airport density (runways/land area) higher (far higher indeed) than that of France, Germany and UK. Italy has 2.4 as many runways per 10.000km² as Germany if I'm not wrong.

Meanwhile, deregulated bus market created faster and cheaper connections in regions where only outdated tracks existed, like Southwest Sicily, Calabria and mountainous areas in Piemonte, which helped to kill some money-losing train services there (not to the point of line closure, but massive frequency reduction to 2/3 per day only).

Bear in mind geography makes railway modernization expensive in 80% of the country, as you need to rectify curves, straighten alignments and so.

A more sensible and rational concession program (than that of France, FI) brought billions for new highway construction.

So Italy transportation is en route to success after decades of money bleeding for Trenitalia and provincial bus companies operating empty coaches connected to now severely watered down regional lines. Trenitalia is breaking even, Hallelujah and kudos for it.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 01:38 AM   #113
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Italy doesn't need a robust public transport system. Italy is a country full of people who love "la macchina" and use them (cars) extensively.
Actually most reopened railways and improved bus lines have more success than expected. But it's obvious that if a railway has trains only every three hours and that connecting buses levae the train station five minutes before arrival of trains anybody go by car (there are really similar cases).

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(1) brand new Torino-Salerno high-speed rail axis (I know, diretissima Firenze-Roma completed on 80's etc. etc.)
Turin-Milan HSL costed around 7 billions euros for 16 trains daily - not really a good result...

(però ti vedo poco sul forum italiano...)
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Old September 12th, 2010, 02:19 AM   #114
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(però ti vedo poco sul forum italiano...)
I have an issue with one well-connected (with mods) forummer there and, in order to avoid problems, misunderstandings and so, I'll not go there until that specific person leaves/stop posting. But I visit the forum daily, so I'm not missing anything.

Moreover, all the Italy-related discussions on this International section are well commented by other forumers there, like the Ponte X no Ponte, A3, AV/AC x potenziamento linee vecchie, new airports... I usually read those before posting here, as there are some quite enlightened forumers giving valuable insights in infrastructure discussions.

Don't expect me, though, to see me on the Berlusconi Quarter sector :p

/sorry for the offtopic
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Old September 12th, 2010, 02:25 AM   #115
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Forse è perché lui sappia solamente "si", "no" e "grazie".

Even by thinking that Italy is a country perfect for car usage he makes a joke of himself. In cities like Milan there isn't enough road (let alone parking) space for all the cars. And its not that Milan would be a city with narrow roads in the centre like most other Italian cities. And that although Milan has the best suburban rail system of the country. What would happen if all the people using it would use the car instead like he suggests they shoud do? Various cities started projects for sustainble mobility and close their centres for individual traffic. There are several projects to improve PT - not only by expanding metros, but also by building decend tram/tram-train networks, suburban rail networks, trolley busses, etc. And in most cases, it makes perfect sense.
Most of the rural roads in the more mountaineous areas aren't "modern" at all (the famous tunnels are maybe the best example).

Edit: Always remember, you shouldn't write drunk, it'll lead to stupid spelling errors...
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Old September 12th, 2010, 03:30 AM   #116
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Lets seee, the Northeast / Mid Atlantic plans on Restoring & Expanding 5,378 kms of Railways of that will be .....949kms of True HSR aka TGV style. 1,057 kms of New or restored Urban rail will be built or restored , the most expensive is the 18 billion $$ 2nd Avenue Subway. Hopefully this will be done by 2040 , restorations are the cheapest and fastest to do. Projected Ridership of the Northeast / Mid Atlantic Intercity system is between 470,000-600,000 daily , trains will run every 20 mins according to the the plans. Current Ridership is about 80,000 daily , and its growing. Train travel is coming back and fast in this part of the country....
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Old September 12th, 2010, 03:48 AM   #117
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In cities like Milan there isn't enough road (let alone parking) space for all the cars. And its not that Milan would be a city with narrow roads in the centre like most other Italian cities.
Strange... I used to drive from a place near Via Lodovico il Moro to a parking lot at Bocconi University... there were always plenty of space. Didn't pay Ecopass because the diesel car I used was new.

Maybe they changed their plans, but there was a talk of reconnecting Via Larga with Corso Venezia for automobile traffic. The ZTL in Milano is quite limited. The financial district (if we can call it like that) south of Corso Dante is accessible by car. The booming outlets and malls (like Volcano) are not accessible, in practice, with PT.

The Comune di Milano unveiled a plan to build more than 3.000 parking places in underground parking lots within the "Cerca dei Bastioni" (the area more or less comprised by the second-generation walls of Milan).

So what am I missing here? Wait! The populist ATM fares of € 1.00 which doesn't bear relation to reality. Or the lowest farebox recovery for the PT agency (ATM) in any other European metropolis with more than 2 million inhabitants.

I never proposed shutting down metropolitan suburban rail (like the S lines in Milano), or stopping construction of subway lines. However, I don't see a point of having a railway up to Aosta, or keeping rail services in lines like Fabriano-Macerata-Civitanova Marhce, where roads and superestrade are plenty and ridership is negligible (I lived in a nearby place btw, train stations with a train every 2/3 hours were desert most of the time).
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Old September 12th, 2010, 10:08 AM   #118
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Let the government build the tracks and maintain that, directly or indirectly, then let COMPETITION (not coordination/collaboration/planning) determine who runs what over the runways, rail tracks and road lanes.
The moment the government spends my tax money on some big project I want to be sure that it will be utilized as efficiently as possible. That comes first.
You seem to think that private companies have as their main objective destroying other private companies. That is a bit odd, and again shows that for all your pro free market posturing you still have to learn quite a bit.
Companies are in it for the money, and in public transport coordination and cooperation is essential if you want to make money. The value of a transportation network increases with the square of the number of points connected. So companies have a lot to gain by cooperating.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 10:10 AM   #119
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I never proposed shutting down metropolitan suburban rail (like the S lines in Milano), or stopping construction of subway lines. However, I don't see a point of having a railway up to Aosta, or keeping rail services in lines like Fabriano-Macerata-Civitanova Marhce, where roads and superestrade are plenty and ridership is negligible (I lived in a nearby place btw, train stations with a train every 2/3 hours were desert most of the time).
With a train every 2/3 hours that's not a big surprise. If you're going to run passenger trains, do it properly. Run ever hour or every half hour, with suitable stock and one person operation. And then you will get people to use the trains.
The Meran - Mals railway is a good example that this is even possible in Italy.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 10:12 AM   #120
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It's funny that one of the worlds most successful rail nations runs all of its railways on a "for profit" basis - Japan. The JR companies and the plethora of private companies also run in a very capitalist manner.
Japan is a bit of a mixture. The main JR companies are purely private, and so are the major companies around Tokyo. However there are also private companies who are more like the Swiss Private railways: operated as a normal Limited, but owned by local authorities, and receiving subsidies.
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