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Old September 8th, 2010, 12:57 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
T Those two base tunnels are not even fit for RO-RO transport of trucks (where the whole truck set goes by rail).
You are wrong. Even the old Lötschberg tunnel can handle RO-RO. I see RO-RO trains there every day.The new one can handle it too, and the new Gotthard tunnel will have sufficient clearance too.

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However, you can't just take all track capacity to transport freight, as in both ends there are cities served by passenger traffic that would get very annoyed to have their service cut.
However the Swiss are pretty good at running lots of trains on just a few tracks. Running 2 fast passengers services and 10+ freight trains per hour should not be to big an issue.

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It is, however, absolutely impossible for a single-track railway, no matter how modern, to carry cars in train shuttles anything near the car traffic at Gotthard.
The Gotthard railway is double track. Soon there will be _four_ tracks crossing the Alps at that spot. I could imagine that they could organize the following: Freights keep using the old tunnel, together with one passenger train per hour (the current IR service).
The new base tunnel sees one fast passenger train per hour (the current ICN/EC service) and an intensive car/truck shuttle.
The Base Tunnel will allow 1400m long freight trains. A RO-RO shuttle of that length will fit about 70 trucks. The road tunnel currently allows the passage of 180 trucks per hour, Looks like three trains per hour will be sufficient to transport all the trucks.
Cars can ofcourse be carried on two levels. Eurotunnel needs a train every 15 minutes to carry up to 500 cars per hour. To carry 2000 cars per hour you would thus need four times as many.
So thechnically it is possible. Run 20 shuttle trains in two groups at 2 minute intervals, then you also have two 10 minute windows to fit in other freights, or a fast passenger train. So your claim that it is "absolutely impossible" isn't true.
The real problem will be finding the needed rolling stock. But then the real problem is not going to be that big, as a lot of the traffic will be diverted

Edit: I exagerated a bit. It is asumed that the replacement RORO shuttle needed would have to transport about 400 cars and 60 trucks per hour on average when the road tunnel closes.

Last edited by K_; September 8th, 2010 at 03:52 PM.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 01:14 PM   #22
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As far as I'm aware, virtually all freights will go via the base tunnels. Certainly all the intermodal services will be doing so - both the ones carrying unaccompanied trailers and swap bodies/containers, and those carrying tractors-and-trailers in combination (the RO-RO trains).

I'd imagine that all of the companies operating freights trains via the Gotthard route will prefer that ALL of their trains go via the new base-tunnel route, as it will almost certainly cost them less to operate trains via this route. For example, I think I'm safe in saying that freight trains going via the new base tunnels will not require the addition of banking locomotives at their rear.

I seem to remember reading somewhere long ago that while the intention of the Swiss is to keep open the classic Gotthard route once the base tunnel route is complete, the traffic levels along these tracks will be much lower than they are currently.

I also remember there some speculation that the classic route may be made to be a single track route at some points, but I think this had just been some chap speculating (in the same way that many of us do here on SSC).
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Old September 8th, 2010, 01:18 PM   #23
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The most reasonable service due to the short duration of the service would be...

...a shuttle for cars throught the old tunnel (being four times shorter, it will require less trains to maintain the same frequency) using material loaned from the Simplon or Lötschebrg services (or as an alternative, new material to be transfered to these after the temporary service on the Gotthard).

...a shuttle for trucks throught the new base tunnel using stock from today's RoLa services, capacity will probably not eb a problem but in this case a few light freight trains could go via the summit line for a few months more

Road traffic during winter is only around 10.000 vpd so considering diverted traffic the shuttles will suffice. There will be problems during some summer days when traffic epaks at 40.000 vpd but you can't dimension a service (especcially if temporary) for just a few days a year (even in summer traffic is around 23.000 vpd).

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I think I'm safe in saying that freight trains going via the new base tunnels will not require the addition of banking locomotives at their rear.
That's one reason of building the new railway.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 02:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post


As far as I'm aware, virtually all freights will go via the base tunnels. Certainly all the intermodal services will be doing so - both the ones carrying unaccompanied trailers and swap bodies/containers, and those carrying tractors-and-trailers in combination (the RO-RO trains).
Eventually Yes. A RORO shuttle could be organised through the old rail tunnel during the renovation of the road tunnel. Only for some high trucks a shuttle would have to be organised through the new base tunnel.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 02:32 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post


That's one reason of building the new railway.


Well I knew that, silly billy.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 02:51 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Road traffic during winter is only around 10.000 vpd so considering diverted traffic the shuttles will suffice. There will be problems during some summer days when traffic epaks at 40.000 vpd but you can't dimension a service (especcially if temporary) for just a few days a year (even in summer traffic is around 23.000 vpd).
.
Of course you can't, or shouldn't, design any transportation infrastructure project around the 1% peak usage or so (that is something you do with electricity maximum production and distribution capacity, for instance).
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Old September 10th, 2010, 02:37 PM   #27
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I know the topic is about Europe, but have a look at this one:

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/Conten.../1237405732511

You can even take a trailer with boat with you....
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Old September 10th, 2010, 02:51 PM   #28
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EETC

There is a dutch company EETC running motorail trains from 's Hertogenbosch to the south of France and Italy.
english leaflet in pdf

Also a good link is the seat61 page about motorail
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Old September 10th, 2010, 03:20 PM   #29
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€ 1.230 for a Den Bosch-Livorno return ticket for car and private compartment for 4? Too expensive IMO. But they surely have a market for that.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 05:44 PM   #30
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Looking on ViaMichelin this trip costs 350 € in tolls and fuel (2 x 175) for 2 x 1285 km in 12 hours one way. Adding the cost for a night in an hotel if you make longer breaks and considering that not all like driving this may be interesting for someone.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 06:46 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Looking on ViaMichelin this trip costs 350 € in tolls and fuel (2 x 175) for 2 x 1285 km in 12 hours one way. Adding the cost for a night in an hotel if you make longer breaks and considering that not all like driving this may be interesting for someone.
Sure it is, otherwise there wouldn't be services like this running, as they are purely private and non-subsidized

By the way, what's the reason beyond your Cisalpino, no, Grazie on your signature? Didn't you like the idea of a separate company to handle Switzerland-Italy traffic?
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Old September 10th, 2010, 10:02 PM   #32
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The Cisalpino plan was to reduce Zürich/Basel-Milano trains from 14 to 9 per direction per day. Actually they reduced them to 7 and they are 1 time out of 3 late. And, as you don't like subsides, I assure you that these trains can't be subsized and they have enough traffic to desserve more trips (sometimes there aren't free places and one has to travel standing, that on an EuroCity train is not really good).

(comunque perché ti vedo raramente -o mai- sul forum italiano?)
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; September 10th, 2010 at 10:11 PM.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 07:27 PM   #33
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Wow.. Maybe it's not as dead as we thought. Sure, the long distance ones aren't as numerous as they once were, but they still exist.

The local shuttles are certainly interesting too. I should look and see if I can find vids on them, as I certainly enjoy the vids of the Sylt service.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 08:25 PM   #34
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No, its not dead. Even Amtrak is running a service along the East Coast to Florida.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 06:36 AM   #35
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Anyone know if there were or are any plans for a long distance motorail going through the Channel Tunnel? I think there would be a market for driving onto a train in Kent and getting off in the south of France. Obviously there would be some technical issues as the car carriers in the tunnel are too big for anything but the tunnel and smaller motorail carriers would have to pass tunnel safety regulations. However it would combine the cost of driving through France on tolled motorways, the tunnel and fuel so could have a market if the cost wasn't too high.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 07:46 AM   #36
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Quote:
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Anyone know if there were or are any plans for a long distance motorail going through the Channel Tunnel? I think there would be a market for driving onto a train in Kent and getting off in the south of France. Obviously there would be some technical issues as the car carriers in the tunnel are too big for anything but the tunnel and smaller motorail carriers would have to pass tunnel safety regulations. However it would combine the cost of driving through France on tolled motorways, the tunnel and fuel so could have a market if the cost wasn't too high.
I'm not sure. The Autorail services from Calais to Nice and Marseille were cancelled in 2009.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 10:03 AM   #37
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By the way, what's the reason beyond your Cisalpino, no, Grazie on your signature? Didn't you like the idea of a separate company to handle Switzerland-Italy traffic?

Cisalpino was a running joke in Switzerland. In general a separate company running Switzerland - Italy trains is a good idea, but the problem was that Trenitalia owned part of Cisalpino. It's just not possible to run an efficient reliable train service with Trenitalia involved.
The other attempt at putting cross border Italy - Switzerland traffic in a separate company (TILO) is also a big failure, and again because of incompetence by Trenitalia.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 11:20 AM   #38
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Trenitalia is the worst railway company in Western Europe, but I think SBB used Cisalpino to discharge itself from its faults (one of them is that SBB wanted absolutely to introduce the new timetable that required 23 multisystem EMU trains, having only 9 of them this caused a lot of cancelled trains and improvvised timetable, SBB could have instead proposed an alternative timetable with conventional trains, but didn't have done that).
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Old September 13th, 2010, 10:21 AM   #39
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Trenitalia is the worst railway company in Western Europe, but I think SBB used Cisalpino to discharge itself from its faults (one of them is that SBB wanted absolutely to introduce the new timetable that required 23 multisystem EMU trains, having only 9 of them this caused a lot of cancelled trains and improvvised timetable, SBB could have instead proposed an alternative timetable with conventional trains, but didn't have done that).
You have a point. SBB was a bit ambitious too. When the (Italian) manufacturer was late in producing the trains they could have investigated an alternative timetable. However changing the timetable is not that easy in Switzerland. The international trains also provide domestic transportation, and the design of the timetable is a lengthy process that involves many stakeholders. Contrary to how it is done in some other countries the timetable is not something "decreed" by the railways, and "discovered" by the public towards the second weekend of december.
Trenitalia's maintance practices also mean that you need more trains than when you follow Swiss practices. You see that now that the fleet has been split. The Swiss sets do a lot more km than the Italian ones do, yet they are more reliable.

But we're getting way off topic here...
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Old September 13th, 2010, 10:53 AM   #40
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Quote:
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Trenitalia is the worst railway company in Western Europe...

Clearly this is totally off-topic, but I'm sure if there's a thread on Italy's railways it will be in Italian, so I thought I may as well as here.

If Trenitalia is, in laymans terms, a crap operation, what are the chances of it undergoing some serious reform in the next ten years or so?

We read much about the plans to change and modify SNCF, but I've never read anything about Trenitalia.
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