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Old September 13th, 2010, 12:33 PM   #41
Coccodrillo
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If necessary someone could move the emssage to the two appropriate discussions...so I answer in two posts.

The 7.31 and 8.31 trains from Zürich end in Chiasso, but they are in the same time slot that the now defunct Bellinzona-Milano IR/EC. This means that trains like Zürich 7.31-Milano 11.50 may have been possible using existing (but unused) slots. Al alternative could have been maintaining the same departure time from Zürich, but arriving in Milan exactly 30 minutes later allowing the use of traditional hauled stock with change of locomotive (in Milan there is a slot for EC trains to the Gotthard at 10 and 40 minutes past each hour, arriving at 20 and 50, but only one out of four is used).
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Old September 13th, 2010, 12:34 PM   #42
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Actual management of FS group managed to reduce its debt, but in Italy there is lack of mentality about public transport. There wa sone famous example near Milan, where a railway and a bus line meet each other. Trains and buses ran exactly every 30 minutes, but buses leaved the station 5 minutes before arrival of the trains, causing an useless 25 minutes waiting time (the busline was isolated and didn't had other correspondances to respect). When the responsbale (bus operator? mayor? I don't know) was asked to do somethig, his response was that it would have increased the bus frequency from 30 to every 15 minutes. That is, nobody thought that the simplest solution was delaying bus departures of 10 minutes (if the bus were every 15 minutes, only the ones connecting with trains would have been heavily used causing a waste with the others). Now timetables have been corrected (and trains run every 15 minutes at peaks), but only because a national television presented the situation to the general public and responsibles were obliged to solve it...
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Old September 13th, 2010, 08:21 PM   #43
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Quote:
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Actual management of FS group managed to reduce its debt, but in Italy there is lack of mentality about public transport.
Both are good signs IMO. Trenitalia was a cash bleeding machine, hemorrhaging € 2,1 bln. in 2002 alone. After that, they decided to focus on profitability, cut many long-distance, slow-speed trains (once there were 18 domestic daily night trains in Italy), passed the bill for regional services to the regional governments, severely reduced service in some lines (though recent lines closure were not that impressive and there are 400km that could be cut overnight without making a dent either in road traffic or overall rail traffic) and decided to go for 2 expensive projects: renovations of 18 major train stations and the High Speed main axis, speeding up plans of what once was envisioned to be completed only by 2020 and is already running.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 10:40 PM   #44
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The result are holes of three hours without trains between intermediate cities between Milan and Bologna (each from 50.000 to 300.000 inhabitants and spaced 40 km between each other), something that in the Netherlands or Switzerland would have a train every 15-30 minutes.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 02:43 AM   #45
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The result are holes of three hours without trains between intermediate cities between Milan and Bologna (each from 50.000 to 300.000 inhabitants and spaced 40 km between each other), something that in the Netherlands or Switzerland would have a train every 15-30 minutes.
They just enlarged the A1 and more lanes are coming there like the Modena-Piacenza widening!

I respect your arguments, even disagreeing with them. Still, this specific case appears to be a broadcasting of the rant of Piacenza, Modena and Parma and Reggio Emillia for having lost more than half of their non-regional train services when the HSL Milano-Bologna came to life couple years ago. They regained almost 70% of the original # of non-Regionale trains calling there already, including fast connections in rush hours with Rome (Frecciarossa) that are AV sets running on classical line up to Bologna and from then onwards on HSL. Frecciabranca, semi-fast services capable of operating on HSL and classical ones, runs 12 times daily. There are no trains (save for crappy regional ones) running from 10h30 to 13h30, but this is the least traveled time. A1 never gets congested that time!
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Old September 14th, 2010, 10:49 AM   #46
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There are no trains (save for crappy regional ones) running from 10h30 to 13h30, but this is the least traveled time. A1 never gets congested that time!
It's a classic chicken and egg problem: It there are no trains there will be no travelers. However Trenitalia seems to miss that the marginal cost of increasing frequency to hourly all day is rather small. (Or they are, as I suspect, horrendously inefficient) Don't forget that most people travel twice a day, and that someone leaving at 7h30 might well want to return at 12h30. And when there is no train at that time decide not to travel, or travel via some other means.
When you abolish a train that has 50 customers on it, you thus usually end up losing more than 50 customers.
There are railways in Europe that manage to make money with classical IC services. They all run hourly, patterned, co-ordinated services, with no gaps in the pattern. Why would you think that would be?
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Old September 14th, 2010, 03:34 PM   #47
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It's a classic chicken and egg problem: It there are no trains there will be no travelers. However Trenitalia seems to miss that the marginal cost of increasing frequency to hourly all day is rather small. (Or they are, as I suspect, horrendously inefficient) Don't forget that most people travel twice a day, and that someone leaving at 7h30 might well want to return at 12h30. And when there is no train at that time decide not to travel, or travel via some other means.
When you abolish a train that has 50 customers on it, you thus usually end up losing more than 50 customers.
There are railways in Europe that manage to make money with classical IC services. They all run hourly, patterned, co-ordinated services, with no gaps in the pattern. Why would you think that would be?
Coordinated operations are per nature monopolistic (privatizing a rail company and giving it a schedule to run doesn't help much). I fiercely oppose the idea of the State setting schedules for people to travel (though I don't mind the State keeping tracks, runways and roadbed open and fit to traffic AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T MESS WITH VEHICLES, FARES AND DRIVERS/PILOTS).

Therefore, the idea of a centralized network is anathema for me, so gaps in the network provide opportunity to competition and new entrants on the rail market, which is a good on itself, regardless of the results.

The purpose of government investment in airports is not to provide a national coordinated flight schedule to minimize travel times and fuel spent, it is, indeed, to provide slots so private airlines can fly where/when they want unconstrained. Same goes for roads. Same should go for tracks.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 08:53 PM   #48
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You're wrong.
Coordination isn't monopolistic at all. You can find them in every industry and every economy, no matter how regulated it is.
If a cooperation can lead to a win-win result for all involved companies, why wouldn't they do it?
In the case of rail operators its rather simple: If coorinated schedules provide better services and make passenger numbers grow more than it could be achieved by every company on its own, they will most probably cooperate - even without regulation by government.

It seems your understanding of free markets (or lets say economy in general) is quite limited.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 10:30 PM   #49
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DB Autozug report from 2008

My wife and I took the DB Autozug from Hambug in Germany to Bolzano/Bozen in northern Italy in September 2008. I think it cost about €470, which worked out a bit more than the cost of fuel and hotels, but was definitely worth it from a relaxation and novelty perspective. Since we'd already driven from Dublin, Ireland across the UK, through Belgium, and up to Hamburg, it was a much more relaxing way to head down to Italy.

1. We checked in at Hamburg-Altona station. Here's a shot of us waiting in the line to board after check-in for the 14.00 service to Italy. When the train was ready to board, any passengers go on foot to their carriage, while the driver drives his/her car onto the train.


2. The train itself was made up of the car carriers, couchette carriages, a dining car, and sleeper carriages and was hauled by an electric DB locomotive.



3. There was one intermediate stop before we hit Italy, at Dusseldorf to load more cars and passengers. We were there for about 40 mins.


4. We had a private sleeping compartment for three people (even though there was only two of us. Here are some shots of it set up for daytime use (ie the bunk beds folded away). There was also a hand wash sink in our compartment, and a shared shower at the end of the sleeping car. A fold-down table was perfect for the laptop, so we could watch movies as the countryside rolled by. The dining car served good meals, but could get crowded at dinner time and we had to queue for 20 mins for a seat.



5. After we returned from dinner, the steward had converted our compartment for night time operation.


6. There were two stops to offload cars in Italy. Ours was the first, in Bozen/Bolzano. You could also have continued to Verona. The car carriers for Bozen were decoupled from the end of the train, and a shunter came to bring them to the unloading ramps.




7. Once the carriers were shunted into position, drivers were allowed onto them and drove their cars off.




Hope this was useful.

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Old September 16th, 2010, 07:39 PM   #50
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Quote:
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You have a point. SBB was a bit ambitious too. When the (Italian) manufacturer...
The manufacturer of the ETR600/610 is not italian anymore.
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Old September 18th, 2010, 05:34 AM   #51
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AWESOME pics CSD.
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Old January 22nd, 2012, 12:23 AM   #52
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The intention to introduce a federal bill bringing about obligatory piggyback trains was reported on about a decade ago, yet nothing's been said since then. The corresponding corridor was to alleviate the autoroute between Montreal and Toronto of its too many trucks, 24/7. The following footage doesn't illustrate the truck problem all that well, for it shows the six-laning in and around southern Ontario (Toronto?); most of the autoroute's merely four lanes (captured in the last couple of minutes although missing trucks, comparatively-speaking ) plus most of its truck traffic originates in either one of the two cities - driving that autoroute as a regular motorist is wearying:

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Old January 22nd, 2012, 09:49 PM   #53
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oh crap, plus it's on an autoroute ...
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