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Old September 19th, 2010, 10:48 AM   #61
Koen Acacia
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Then it comes to ideology. Free market is like Democracy: sometimes it bring unexpected and unintended consequences, but you just accept them in the name of higher values and more important standing points. If a country is to lose convenience of PT and get more congested, so be it: it is the price to push a less state-regulated paradigm in society and transport should be private and, preferrably, individual.

It is wrong IMO to decide otherwise like it would be wrong for a majority in any given country to pass a law saying, for instance, that people shorter than 1.50m would be barred from public service or higher education, for instance.
Err, no. Tax-payer funded public transport isn't similar to a majority barring people shorter than 1.50 from public service. It's more similar to a majority deciding to use tax-payers' money to fund a police system, or a majority deciding to use tax-payers' money to fund the education system that you're currently using, or a majority deciding to use some 700 million euro of tax-payers' money to build a new stretch of highway. It is, in short, similar to how any existing democracy actually works.
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Old September 19th, 2010, 10:51 AM   #62
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A true private company is interested in maximizing profits, not increasing ridership. But most state-controlled transportation companies are concerned about maximizing ridership while breaking even.
So what?
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Old September 19th, 2010, 01:51 PM   #63
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We already have that technology: electric trains powered from renewable sources.
If it is not private, unscheduled and atomized, it's not really worth to solve majority of transportation needs.

Only the car (not exactly the car, but a vehicle that can be driven by the passenger, use all available road network (I don't think one ever suppose to be feasible to have tracks at every doorstep like we have roads) and be a private property) can provide the convenience of living in increasingly less dense places with a more and more fragmented and personalized working schedule.

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So what?
So we got a problem! Vehicle operation is not an essential thing for the government to mess with.
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Old September 19th, 2010, 02:52 PM   #64
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If it is not private, unscheduled and atomized, it's not really worth to solve majority of transportation needs.
Dirty capitalist pig! You claim that your very ideological point of view IS the only way, but you cannot know that it actually would be. Its not even the only (let alone the best) option for a "capitalist" concept of transport service.

More to the point: The car has always been the most energetically inefficient method of transport (except the plane, obviously). And there is no way foreseeable that that will change - we only can work on getting it cleaner, but then again it will be more inefficient than a train or a but.
If we want to go green (and we won't have another option), public transport offers an easier way.

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Only the car (not exactly the car, but a vehicle that can be driven by the passenger, use all available road network (I don't think one ever suppose to be feasible to have tracks at every doorstep like we have roads) and be a private property) can provide the convenience of living in increasingly less dense places with a more and more fragmented and personalized working schedule.
Thats stupid as well. Who says that the Western livestyle of today is the way it should be? So far, its nothing more than a short episode in human history. It's very possible that this episode of human culture will change again at some point.

Noone here is saying that public transport should or could replace the car (only you suggest it the other way round). A clever mix of all kinds of transport is what every free, individualistic society (basically a society which you want to have) needs.

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So we got a problem! Vehicle operation is not an essential thing for the government to mess with.
Mail services aren't in the core of the duties of a government but were done by them for centuries. Why? Because it is essential for a working country and economic development.


Why don't you just move to the States, the dreamland of individualistic, highly personalized livestyle done by mighty cars and spent in wide-spreading suburbs? Adverse effects might include deserted downtowns and a lower quality of live in general.
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Old September 19th, 2010, 03:07 PM   #65
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Vehicle operation is not an essential thing for the government to mess with.
Well, I guess they should stop building roads then too, right?

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If it is not private, unscheduled and atomized, it's not really worth to solve majority of transportation needs.
You'd throw away a perfectly good system simply because it isn't private? Where does this obsession with 'ideology before reason' come from?
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Old September 19th, 2010, 04:14 PM   #66
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I think the last few posts demonstrate why I rarely agree with Suburbanist...he puts the car on an ideological pedestal, rendering it immune from criticism of any kind, while expecting other modes of transport to either be profitable(while having absurd standards forced on them) or face destruction.

I believe transport as a subject should be 100% practical. Different modes of transport should be invested in because they're fast, efficient, comfortable, and as a result bring economic benefits to the areas they serve, regardless of whether they fit some ideology or other. The car became the dominant form of land transport in the mid-20th century because at the time it was(and in many cases still is) more practical and attractive than most other modes, and advancements in rail technology has allowed trains to bounce back and compete with or surpass cars in some areas such as commutes or intercity journeys. Hence you see the hundreds of rail projects around the world.

One day the car is going to be replaced as the dominant form of passenger transport by something else. It may be private, it may be public, but it's going to happen because it'll do a better job of getting people from Point A to Point B, and not because it's "individualistic" or whatever.
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Old September 19th, 2010, 04:38 PM   #67
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The car is going to be replaced when other form of transportation that provides almost 100% coverage, is reachable and have no setup or waiting time arises.

Until that happens, I'll support the promoting of more function-zoned, horizontal cities with freeways connecting them because everything else I case about cities follows this trend (major commercial centers, detachment from medieval concepts like "neighborhood-character" and so).
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Old September 19th, 2010, 05:22 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Koen Acacia View Post
Err, no. Tax-payer funded public transport isn't similar to a majority barring people shorter than 1.50 from public service.
Tax payer funded public transport is very similar to tenant funded elevators...
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Old September 19th, 2010, 05:31 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Only the car (not exactly the car, but a vehicle that can be driven by the passenger, use all available road network (I don't think one ever suppose to be feasible to have tracks at every doorstep like we have roads) and be a private property) can provide the convenience of living in increasingly less dense places with a more and more fragmented and personalized working schedule.
The bigest downside to the car is that you drive it yourself. That's actually a regression, as a central property of a capitalist industrial society is the division of labor. I don't grow my own food. I don't sew my own clothes. I don't see why I should have to drive myself around.
I don't see why I shouldn't be able to go somewhere and at the same time check my email, have my lunch, prepare a paper, or if I so wish just have a nice chat with that cute girl in the seat oposite me :-) Frequent public transit is exactly what makes my fragmented and personalized schedule possible.
We are not living in increasingly dense places. It is in fact exactly the oposite. Notice how even in a huge country like Australia people still cluster together. It's because we're social animals. We get satisfy our needs mostly through interaction with other people, and that is why places where other people are, are valuable. That's why even in a country like Australia they have congestion problems. Everyone wants to go to downtown Sydney. Why? Because that's where everybody is.
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Old September 20th, 2010, 09:46 AM   #70
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So we got a problem! Vehicle operation is not an essential thing for the government to mess with.
You were the one talking about democracy, right? Well, here's some info for you: in a democracy, it's up to the majority to decide whether or not government involvement is needed or not. And whether or not it does or doesn't make a profit while doing so is completely irrelevant in that decision.
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