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Old June 27th, 2017, 02:51 AM   #2021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luhai View Post
It would be funny if older CRH train sets starts adopts the green and yellow scheme....
Haha no kidding, original CRH1/2/3/5 will get the olive plus yellow strip scheme.
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Old June 27th, 2017, 03:09 AM   #2022
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post

There's nothing wrong with licensing tech/tech transfer, then improving it for your own use afterwards. No need to be all showy about it. It's not as if any manufacturer has built this technology from scratch... no one's reinventing the wheel here. I think it's great that China has taken tech from Japan and Europe to learn how to build these trains and then build them locally, but making flash statements like "We OWN ALL THE TECHNOLOGY" is disingenous at best.
They are not simply bragging. I think you miss a big point about train export.

The tech-transfer contracts China had signed with Europe/Japan firms forbid China to use their transferred techs for export to third country. So China indeed to have to go extra mile and made major efforts for new design to avoid patent infringements if they want to export. This has lead to CRH380A which I believe have obtained IP patents in the US already as a way of endorsement, and therefore are able export to Hong Kong. The same thing happens to the two new types as they will export to Indonesia HSR. If Japan/Europe firms smell something, I'm sure they will bring it up because of the breach of agreements. They are not stupid.

So yes they are bragging partly for PR reasons bu also show some level of confidence they can export this thing. Let's see the reaction of other firms when they export this to Indonesia. That would be the litmus test.

Last edited by tjrgx; June 27th, 2017 at 03:43 AM.
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Old June 27th, 2017, 07:35 AM   #2023
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
There's quite a focus on the... hey guys... we built and designed this... NO, seriously... we did!!! By the way, we designed these trains all by ourselves.


This is not a reflection on your post tjrgx, as you're just repeating what was said, but it's as if this statement on CCTV is more meant for show or braggadocio than anything else. Or perhaps if they repeat it enough the local Chinese citizens will give it more credibility.

There's nothing wrong with licensing tech/tech transfer, then improving it for your own use afterwards. No need to be all showy about it. It's not as if any manufacturer has built this technology from scratch... no one's reinventing the wheel here. I think it's great that China has taken tech from Japan and Europe to learn how to build these trains and then build them locally, but making flash statements like "We OWN ALL THE TECHNOLOGY" is disingenous at best.
Very likely true.

The term for invention patents in China is 20 years from the filing date. The term for utility model patents is 10 years from the filing date.
- http://www.epo.org/searching-for-pat...q.html#faq-476

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
This was also the case with CRH380A which was claimed to be 'the first indigenous high-speed train' in China. Now the same thing with CR400AF/CR400BF. Not that it really matters or makes any difference but it does sound a little funny. Especially 7 years after the initial claim. It's like we forgot about the CRH380A and therefore the claim can be reused for these new trains. Perhaps they'll decide to use it for some new train model in 2025?

I know it's all about marketing and PR but perhaps CRC (or whoever is developing those trainsets) should have employed a more experienced and professional advertising/PR agency to produce marketing material for those trainsets (which I have no doubt are excellent).
Why not? As in locally assembled and/or produced for example.
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Old June 27th, 2017, 07:42 AM   #2024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjrgx View Post
They are not simply bragging. I think you miss a big point about train export.

The tech-transfer contracts China had signed with Europe/Japan firms forbid China to use their transferred techs for export to third country. So China indeed to have to go extra mile and made major efforts for new design to avoid patent infringements if they want to export. This has lead to CRH380A which I believe have obtained IP patents in the US already as a way of endorsement, and therefore are able export to Hong Kong. The same thing happens to the two new types as they will export to Indonesia HSR. If Japan/Europe firms smell something, I'm sure they will bring it up because of the breach of agreements. They are not stupid.

So yes they are bragging partly for PR reasons bu also show some level of confidence they can export this thing. Let's see the reaction of other firms when they export this to Indonesia. That would be the litmus test.
Do Indonesia care about IP ?
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Old June 27th, 2017, 08:16 AM   #2025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjrgx View Post
They are not simply bragging. I think you miss a big point about train export.

The tech-transfer contracts China had signed with Europe/Japan firms forbid China to use their transferred techs for export to third country. So China indeed to have to go extra mile and made major efforts for new design to avoid patent infringements if they want to export. This has lead to CRH380A which I believe have obtained IP patents in the US already as a way of endorsement, and therefore are able export to Hong Kong. The same thing happens to the two new types as they will export to Indonesia HSR. If Japan/Europe firms smell something, I'm sure they will bring it up because of the breach of agreements. They are not stupid.

So yes they are bragging partly for PR reasons bu also show some level of confidence they can export this thing. Let's see the reaction of other firms when they export this to Indonesia. That would be the litmus test.

Yah I do get it. They're trying not to raise alarms. But it's not as if they invented these trains. No one really believes that. Yeah I get that they've changed the original ip enough to satisfy legal constraints and they iterated on some ideas to make the "7 key areas"

And trying to drag China through courts on this kind of IP generally is bad business practice. Not worth the effort.
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Old June 27th, 2017, 03:46 PM   #2026
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Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
Do Indonesia care about IP ?
whether Indonesia cares is irrelevant. It's simens/Kawasaki,etc who cares because they are the ones who compete CRRC on global stage.
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Old June 27th, 2017, 08:37 PM   #2027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Yah I do get it. They're trying not to raise alarms. But it's not as if they invented these trains. No one really believes that. Yeah I get that they've changed the original ip enough to satisfy legal constraints and they iterated on some ideas to make the "7 key areas"

And trying to drag China through courts on this kind of IP generally is bad business practice. Not worth the effort.
Assuming they have a case ( accusation is not it ). IP protections do expire, can be sold, not applied and simply given away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjrgx View Post
whether Indonesia cares is irrelevant. It's simens/Kawasaki,etc who cares because they are the ones who compete CRRC on global stage.
Besides them, who really care about accusations when a good deal is on the table?
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Old June 29th, 2017, 10:55 AM   #2028
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Is there no CR400CF?

They speak of two series of trains, since there are only two visually different, but could be three series of other so many manufacturers now grouped in CRRC (China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation).

CSR Qingdao Sifang (factory A) designed the CR400AF, which is derived from the Blue Dolphin prototypes (CRH-0201 to 0208), while the CR400BF and CR400CF are derived from the Golden Phoenix prototypes, designed by CNR Tangshan (factory B, there were at least The prototype 0305, probably 5 or more) and by CNR Changchun (factory C, at least 0503 and 0507, are probably 7 prototypes).
So it seems that the CRH400BF should be called CRH400CF because it is designed by Changchun, except that as both CNRs share design and series.

The first order totals 196 trains, I imagine it will be the total, do you know how many of each factory?

Thanks in advance.
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Old June 29th, 2017, 01:49 PM   #2029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjrgx View Post
whether Indonesia cares is irrelevant. It's simens/Kawasaki,etc who cares because they are the ones who compete CRRC on global stage.
To the contrary, it's highly relevant. Basically, is Indonesia happy to buy at a discount what Japan is protesting is stolen from them? Competition on global stage depends crucially on buyers' willingness to respect intellectual property claims rather than happily buy stolen IP.
In any case: Japan isn't going to buy CRH or Siemens, because they have their own. Indonesia is not (yet) rich enough to develop their own. The potential market for Chinese copies is the countries that are rich enough to buy, but not rich enough to produce their own or buy the originals.
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Old June 30th, 2017, 12:54 AM   #2030
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Indonesians should do exactly as the Chinese did: buy 6 trains from China, require the plans, and build the rest at home.
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Old June 30th, 2017, 06:06 AM   #2031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCreader View Post
Indonesians should do exactly as the Chinese did: buy 6 trains from China, require the plans, and build the rest at home.
If only going from 'should' to 'would' is as easy as going from station 'A' to station 'B'....
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Old June 30th, 2017, 08:04 AM   #2032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCreader View Post
Indonesians should do exactly as the Chinese did: buy 6 trains from China, require the plans, and build the rest at home.
Umm, if your refering to the CRH2 based on the E2 Shinkansen, it was 60 trains and a few billion dollars in R&D encompassing many sectors and technological challenges.

While Kawasaki no longer operates in China, Siemens and Alstom are still, a decade later, getting huge orders.
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Old June 30th, 2017, 10:12 AM   #2033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
To the contrary, it's highly relevant. Basically, is Indonesia happy to buy at a discount what Japan is protesting is stolen from them? Competition on global stage depends crucially on buyers' willingness to respect intellectual property claims rather than happily buy stolen IP.
In any case: Japan isn't going to buy CRH or Siemens, because they have their own. Indonesia is not (yet) rich enough to develop their own. The potential market for Chinese copies is the countries that are rich enough to buy, but not rich enough to produce their own or buy the originals.
The definitive shape of the Lego bricks, with the inner tubes, was patented by the Lego Group in 1958.[13][53] Several competitors have attempted to take advantage of Lego's popularity by producing blocks of similar dimensions, and advertising them as being compatible with Lego bricks. In 2002, Lego sued the CoCo Toy Company in Beijing for copyright infringement over its "Coko bricks" product. CoCo was ordered to cease manufacture of the products, publish a formal apology and pay damages.[54] Lego sued the English company Best-Lock Construction Toys in German courts in 2004[55] and 2009;[56] however, the Federal Patent Court of Germany denied Lego trademark protection for the shape of its bricks for the latter case.[57] In 2005, the Lego Company sued Canadian company Mega Bloks for trademark violation, but the Supreme Court of Canada upheld Mega Bloks' rights to sell their product.[58] In 2010, the European Court of Justice ruled that the eight-peg design of the original Lego brick "merely performs a technical function [and] cannot be registered as a trademark."[59] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego#Clones_of_Lego

Interestingly ...

In 2015, the LEGO Group announced an investment of 1 billion DKK to find and implement sustainable plastic materials to manufacture its Lego elements. Now, Chinese toymaker BanBao has beat them to it.

BanBao, a Chinese manufacturer of educational toys that, among other things, supplies Lego-compatible plastic building blocks, has announced the launch of a new line of building blocks made of bioplastic. The new bricks were developed in collaboration with Biopromotions, a Dutch company specialized in products made from biodegradable and biobased plastic materials.
- http://www.bioplasticsmagazine.com/e...-with-Lego.php
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Old July 1st, 2017, 11:21 PM   #2034
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New CRH2E sleeper EMU with different bed layout starts operation along Beijing-Shanghai route

starts on July, 1st, 2017





















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Old July 1st, 2017, 11:26 PM   #2035
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Max speed?

What kind of beds are on it? How long does the trip take? What are the departure and arrival times? What is the capacity on board?

Thanks!
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Old July 1st, 2017, 11:49 PM   #2036
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Max speed?

What kind of beds are on it? How long does the trip take? What are the departure and arrival times? What is the capacity on board?

Thanks!
Max Speed: 250km/h

New bed class: 动卧 (EMU bed)

Only one train for trail operation on Shanghai-Beijing route D311/2
(not on PDL route because of track maintainance at night)

whole trip: 11hr 52min; capacity: 880 (previous CRH2E:650)
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Old July 2nd, 2017, 12:37 AM   #2037
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Thanks!

11:52 is about the time it took when I rode the sleeper Beijing-Shanghai in 2007 on the old tracks.
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Old July 2nd, 2017, 08:43 AM   #2038
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjrgx View Post
Max Speed: 250km/h

New bed class: 动卧 (EMU bed)

Only one train for trail operation on Shanghai-Beijing route D311/2
(not on PDL route because of track maintainance at night)

whole trip: 11hr 52min; capacity: 880 (previous CRH2E:650)
I love that CRH also runs on conventional tracks. The train looks comfortable.
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 01:20 AM   #2039
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How many beds per coach?
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 01:24 AM   #2040
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How many beds per coach?
60
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