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Old July 18th, 2017, 08:28 AM   #2081
flankerjun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post


Even with this list it's hard for me to keep up with all the variations of China's high speed trains. The only one I've ridden on was CRH1A from Guangzhou East to Shenzhen(Luohu) back in 2010. The CRH3A kinda threw me off. Two different companies make the same train and it gets the same designation? Plus jumping from CRH5A to CRH5E makes me wonder what happened to the CRH5B, C, D. Interesting developments though. My favorites are still the CRH5A and CRH380B(Velaro).
welcome to come back to China,now it is much more different
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Old July 18th, 2017, 09:08 AM   #2082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
...
The CRH3A kinda threw me off. Two different companies make the same train and it gets the same designation?
.. .
Yes, I am more surprised that they have not used the same design, but a similar one.
The CRH380B/BL trains are manufactured, some by CNR Changchun (261 trains) and others by CNR Tangshan (195), and they look the same to me.

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Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
...
Plus jumping from CRH5A to CRH5E makes me wonder what happened to the CRH5B, C, D. Interesting developments though. My favorites are still the CRH5A and CRH380B(Velaro).
A: 8 cars for 250 kmh.
B: 16 cars for 250 kmh.
C: 8 cars for 300/350 kmh.
D: 16 cars for 300/350 kmh (there are none).
E: 16 bed cars.
G: cold climate and high mountain.
H: hot and sandy climate (Han).

Well, in Spain we also have our problems with names.
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Old July 19th, 2017, 08:30 PM   #2083
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Fuxing at 350 kmh

It is said that the new Fuxing trains have a top speed of 400 and an average speed of 350 ( ). Again it said that 400 was the momentary maximum speed and 350 was sustained (???).
Well, I already found a photo with the 350 km mark, so the sustained speed with a 5 mm ramp for homologation is 385 kmh.

CR400AF-0208 (@cr400af_0208) | Twitter

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Old July 20th, 2017, 12:41 AM   #2084
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It is said that the new Fuxing trains have a top speed of 400 and an average speed of 350 ( ). Again it said that 400 was the momentary maximum speed and 350 was sustained (???).
Well, I already found a photo with the 350 km mark, so the sustained speed with a 5 mm ramp for homologation is 385 kmh.

CR400AF-0208 (@cr400af_0208) | Twitter

Journalists tend to get the concepts of average vs maximum vs sustained wrong and mix them up on a constant basis. Actually they always get those wrong. Intentionally or not, that's a different question.

In reality the new Chinese train models are no different from the previous ones when it comes to speed. Various CRH trainsets were capable of sustained 350km/h operation (as early as the original CRH3 from 2008) so there is nothing new in this regard.

The 'maximum' (non-sustained) speed is a very slippery term. Any of those trains could achieve speeds in excess of 450km/h without any modifications. So marketing them as 'capable of achieving 400km/h' is not a problem. They could do that with the old good CRH3 if they wanted to. They could even market them as 'capable' of achieving 450km/h and that would still be true. In reality they are 350km/h trainsets just like any other new 300+ km/h train design that we saw over the past decade in China and elsewhere.

The reason why they decided to stress the speed factor in Fuxing is because they're trying to push it for the international HSR market and therefore it should have a solid selling point. And of course the factor of national pride because it's the first real 'Chinese designed and built' train. Therefore it's the 'fastest' train with a 'maximum speed' of '400km/h'.

Last edited by Pansori; July 20th, 2017 at 12:55 AM.
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Old July 20th, 2017, 10:11 AM   #2085
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I think these Fuxing "test" trains are the faster ones CRRC is working on. The current tracks will need to be modified it seems.

China is working on next-generation bullet trains with a maximum operational speed of 400 km/h that will be ready by 2020. The bullet train will be tested on a rail section of Beijing-Shenyang HSR, with teste completed by 2019. - http://www.railwaypro.com/wp/chinas-...ompleted-2020/

About the Fuxing ...

average life has been extended from 20 to 30 years ... improves energy efficiency by 17% when the train is travelling at its average speed of 350km/h ...
the Rejuvenation trains are expected to be safer too, with a total of 2,500 diagnostic monitoring points: some 500 more than their predecessor ... tested to tolerate temperatures of minus 40 to 40 degrees Celsius ...
- https://www.weekinchina.com/2017/07/...g-rejuvenated/
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Old July 20th, 2017, 04:28 PM   #2086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
I think these Fuxing "test" trains are the faster ones CRRC is working on. The current tracks will need to be modified it seems.

China is working on next-generation bullet trains with a maximum operational speed of 400 km/h that will be ready by 2020. The bullet train will be tested on a rail section of Beijing-Shenyang HSR, with teste completed by 2019. - http://www.railwaypro.com/wp/chinas-...ompleted-2020/

About the Fuxing ...

average life has been extended from 20 to 30 years ... improves energy efficiency by 17% when the train is travelling at its average speed of 350km/h ...
the Rejuvenation trains are expected to be safer too, with a total of 2,500 diagnostic monitoring points: some 500 more than their predecessor ... tested to tolerate temperatures of minus 40 to 40 degrees Celsius ...
- https://www.weekinchina.com/2017/07/...g-rejuvenated/
Naysaysers are going to say the speed will be restricted to 300kmh blah blah blah... and it's all for marketing purpose.
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Old July 20th, 2017, 06:22 PM   #2087
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Naysaysers are going to say the speed will be restricted to 300kmh blah blah blah... and it's all for marketing purpose.
This has been the case so far though hasn't it? How fast do those '380km/h' trainsets go again?
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Old July 20th, 2017, 07:41 PM   #2088
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This has been the case so far though hasn't it? How fast do those '380km/h' trainsets go again?
Will apply to future trains too?
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Old July 21st, 2017, 12:07 AM   #2089
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Will apply to future trains too?
I really hope it will not
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Old July 21st, 2017, 03:06 AM   #2090
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I really hope it will not
If you had read through the technological improvements in the new trains and signalling system, you would have a lot more confidence than mere hope.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 12:26 PM   #2091
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If you had read through the technological improvements in the new trains and signalling system, you would have a lot more confidence than mere hope.
I'm a track record guy and a skeptic one at that. So let's wait and see for the actual trains go through the countryside at 400km/h in regular revenue service. Then it will turn into something more than a mere hope.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 03:47 PM   #2092
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I'm a track record guy and a skeptic one at that. So let's wait and see for the actual trains go through the countryside at 400km/h in regular revenue service. Then it will turn into something more than a mere hope.
If CRRC did not learn from their mistakes, I don't think they would proceed to the next stage. It did not happen recently.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/0...o-350-kph.html

For them to announce the higher speed only to run at the old speed after all the progress does not sound right to me.

Last edited by t2contra; July 22nd, 2017 at 03:55 PM.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 03:01 AM   #2093
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All Chinese news reports so far have only mentioned 350km/h speed for the coming Oct. 1st holiday. The trainset is designed as 400km/hr capable, but I am not able to find any original article that reports a 400km/hr revenue speed in two years.

The "nextbigfuture" web article mentioned 400km but cites "shanghaiist" as source, which in turn cites "caixin" as source. Both "shanghaiist" and "caixin" reported 350km/h speed only, they didn't mention any 400km/h revenue service in the future.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 04:54 AM   #2094
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I posted the link to show the progress in their technology. 350kph operating speed is within their reach.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 03:02 PM   #2095
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All Chinese news reports so far have only mentioned 350km/h speed for the coming Oct. 1st holiday. The trainset is designed as 400km/hr capable, but I am not able to find any original article that reports a 400km/hr revenue speed in two years.

The "nextbigfuture" web article mentioned 400km but cites "shanghaiist" as source, which in turn cites "caixin" as source. Both "shanghaiist" and "caixin" reported 350km/h speed only, they didn't mention any 400km/h revenue service in the future.
'400km/h' was being mentioned on numerous occasions to do with HSR development in different countries. UK's HS2, Russia's planned Moscow-something line was also cited to be '400km/h'. It's the case in China too with its new trainsets.

It seems to be a simple marketing trick when talking about future projects to make people more excited about the 'future technology' which 'in a few years time' will allow trains to go 400km/h. Something that is not the case at present. And when talking about the future and selling a new multi-billion project to the public it wants to see the 'benefits' over the 'existing technology'.

In reality there is no any breakthrough yet that would make it certain that 400km/h trains will be viable in a few years time. Maybe they will or maybe they won't. It's already not a problem from the technological point of view with even older trains. Only that it's not really viable from the financial point of view as running cost would be much higher. It could be that in a few years time the running costs will decrease and 400km/h trains will become real. but i wouldn't bet my money on it. 350km/h is what China will go for in the foreseeable future. Unless it will decide to have some one-off technology demonstrator and a tourist attraction running at 400km/h. Like Shanghai maglev. This is why the Chinese (or any other for that matter) trains are running way below their design speeds of 350km/h. Not because they cannot. but because it doesn't pay off.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 03:33 PM   #2096
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
'400km/h' was being mentioned on numerous occasions to do with HSR development in different countries. UK's HS2, Russia's planned Moscow-something line was also cited to be '400km/h'. It's the case in China too with its new trainsets.

It seems to be a simple marketing trick when talking about future projects to make people more excited about the 'future technology' which 'in a few years time' will allow trains to go 400km/h. Something that is not the case at present. And when talking about the future and selling a new multi-billion project to the public it wants to see the 'benefits' over the 'existing technology'.

In reality there is no any breakthrough yet that would make it certain that 400km/h trains will be viable in a few years time. Maybe they will or maybe they won't. It's already not a problem from the technological point of view with even older trains. Only that it's not really viable from the financial point of view as running cost would be much higher. It could be that in a few years time the running costs will decrease and 400km/h trains will become real. but i wouldn't bet my money on it. 350km/h is what China will go for in the foreseeable future. Unless it will decide to have some one-off technology demonstrator and a tourist attraction running at 400km/h. Like Shanghai maglev. This is why the Chinese (or any other for that matter) trains are running way below their design speeds of 350km/h. Not because they cannot. but because it doesn't pay off.
I believe the top speed is not ever intended for operational use, but more to prove the reliability of the trains. To operate a device below the tested limit is almost universal.

As for the Chinese trains running below 350km/h for economic reasons, the new trains will resolve that due to greater efficiency and aerodynamic design.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 04:56 PM   #2097
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Up-to-date guide of China's EMU (2017.07.20)

By 魔光老徐@weibo

PDF:

http://docdro.id/aNmrMSY
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 08:59 PM   #2098
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Thanks for the HST family tree!

There are some news: a new CRH5G (5218 series) with the new little windows on the sides of the cabin, although they are of another style.
Call CJ1 (conmuter train) to a variant of the CRH3A already discussed here, and CJ2 to the CRH3G.
Although the real new ones are the CRH3X and the CRH-0306 two-level prototype derived from the CR400BF which I imagine will be the beds for 350km / h of CRRC Tangshan with 16 cars and 16,640 kW.

Another thing, I would not pay any attention to a web that says: "China cut the speed of Chinese high-speed trains after a July 2011 accident" (July 23). https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/0...o-350-kph.html

World's longest high-speed train to decelerate a bit. People´s Daily April 15, 2011:
Quote:
China is putting the brakes on its bullet trains following complaints that the system is dangerously fast and too expensive.

The fastest routes will be cut from 350kph to 300kph as of July 1, Railway Minister Sheng Guangzu told the People's Daily.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 04:44 AM   #2099
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...
Another thing, I would not pay any attention to a web that says: "China cut the speed of Chinese high-speed trains after a July 2011 accident" (July 23). https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/0...o-350-kph.html

World's longest high-speed train to decelerate a bit. People´s Daily April 15, 2011:
They had to exercise caution and monitor safety and a new regime of upgrades. But after years of operation free of that July 2011-category of failings and with better technology, returning to the higher speed would just be in order.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 11:28 AM   #2100
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This is more credible if we talk of trains running at 400 km/h in commercial service:
Train capable of 400 km/h ready to boost region's connectivity by 2020. China Daily. 4 May 2017.
Quote:
China is working on next-generation bullet trains with a maximum operational speed of 400 kilometers per hour that will be ready by 2020 for markets linked to the Belt and Road Initiative's vision, the country's top railway vehicle maker said.

"We will apply new materials in the research and production of the future high-speed trains, such as carbon fiber and aluminum alloy, which will help reduce weight and enhance energy efficiency," said Qiao Feng, a senior engineer at the CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles Co, a subsidiary of China Railway Rolling Stock Corp.

The new trains will be available in Belt and Road Initiative markets, and will be able to reduce per passenger energy consumption by 10 percent compared with high-speed trains that can run 350 km/h. The CRRC will be the manufacturer and exporter, according to Qiao.

Once available, by around 2020, the new trains are expected to promote regional connectivity and create new business for China and overseas economies through the Belt and Road Initiative, Qiao added.

Feng Hao, a rail transportation researcher at the National Development and Reform Commission, said that the 400 km/h high-speed train project would help many heavily populated countries change their commuter transportation from a long dependence on automobiles.
Trains capable of 400 km/h to run in 2020.
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