daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 30th, 2010, 11:56 AM   #261
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
the above pics shows a CRH380BL at a test railway in Beijing, It's a regular railway for test new trains only, in actual service CRH trains runs at both regular tracks ( upgrade to 200km/h) and dedicated tracks (newly constructed lines at speed level 250km/h or 350km/h)
Shall any lines be newly constructed at speed level faster than 350 km/h, such as 380 km/h?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 30th, 2010, 12:07 PM   #262
Huhu
Registered User
 
Huhu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 2,316
Likes (Received): 437

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
Isn't Bombardier a Canadian cpmpany?
Yes but passenger rail in this country is woeful when compared to elsewhere.
Huhu no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2010, 04:31 PM   #263
k.k.jetcar
Registered User
 
k.k.jetcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Sapporo
Posts: 1,811
Likes (Received): 452


Bombardier bought a bunch of European rolling stock makers a few years ago (including Adtranz), which gave them the capability to produce modern rolling stock. Though it's a Canadian company, its rolling stock division is headquartered in Berlin, Germany.
k.k.jetcar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2010, 06:57 PM   #264
hmmwv
Registered User
 
hmmwv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,391
Likes (Received): 420

Man that is a long train, I guess during the Lunar New Year migration they can link two 16 car trainsets together and that would be quite the sight.
hmmwv no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2010, 08:18 PM   #265
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 381

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epi View Post

Considering these Chinese trains are basically reverse engineered or add-ons of foreign technology, I wonder if they just stripped a bunch of components, put the power up a bit and are running them beyond what the Europeans/Japanese would safely run it at.
This is a wrong interpretation of what is going on with high speed rail network of China.

Lines that are part of 4+4 main trunk high speed network + Urumqi high speed line + Intercity high speed rail links which are being constructed in parallel to 4+4 main trunk in highly populated areas (all totaled more than 13,000km soon) are very different than the high speed line in Europe and Japan.

1) Most of this network will have 7000m max turn radius. In my opinion this is the most important feature to reach higher speeds more than 320km/h.

2) Ballastless tracks. At higher speeds (i.e 350km/h) trains may throw ballast stones which is a serious safety problem.

3) Mostly elevated tracks: Naturally leads to increased level of safety and more stable tracks.

4) Trains which is almost the least important part of this infrastructure project (China is spending like 700billion dollars and most of this money goes to tracks and stations and only about 10% will go to trains itself) are not the trains that are operated at lower speeds in Europe or Japan.
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2010, 02:17 PM   #266
maldini
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 766
Likes (Received): 75

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epi View Post
Cool trains! One of my friends rode the one to Shanghai a few weeks ago.

I wonder how much of the speed difference is due to different regulations? Here in North America, trains have to be super heavy and strong because they are supposed to survive anything, while I know in Europe/Japan they just design the system so that the train will have a minimal chance of hitting other trains/derail so they can make much lighter trains.

Considering these Chinese trains are basically reverse engineered or add-ons of foreign technology, I wonder if they just stripped a bunch of components, put the power up a bit and are running them beyond what the Europeans/Japanese would safely run it at.

Do these trains run on dedicated tracks? From the above pictures, it looks almost as if it just runs on regular tracks which is surprising, unless these are trains just pulling out of the station/yard.

Either way, I wish our government here in Canada would actually put a bit more money towards trains but that'll never happen even if one of the premier HSR companies in the world is based in Canada.
There are so many pictures in this thread showing the new dedicated tracks
built for the Chinese highspeed railway network.
maldini no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2010, 02:38 PM   #267
greenlion
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 374
Likes (Received): 30

Wrong post
greenlion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2010, 01:44 AM   #268
Bird01
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
This is a wrong interpretation of what is going on with high speed rail network of China.

Lines that are part of 4+4 main trunk high speed network + Urumqi high speed line + Intercity high speed rail links which are being constructed in parallel to 4+4 main trunk in highly populated areas (all totaled more than 13,000km soon) are very different than the high speed line in Europe and Japan.

1) Most of this network will have 7000m max turn radius. In my opinion this is the most important feature to reach higher speeds more than 320km/h.

2) Ballastless tracks. At higher speeds (i.e 350km/h) trains may throw ballast stones which is a serious safety problem.

3) Mostly elevated tracks: Naturally leads to increased level of safety and more stable tracks.

4) Trains which is almost the least important part of this infrastructure project (China is spending like 700billion dollars and most of this money goes to tracks and stations and only about 10% will go to trains itself) are not the trains that are operated at lower speeds in Europe or Japan.
The 350-380kmh high speed railway is a highly integrated, complicated system, rolling stock is just part of it. It may not be even the most important part. It is naive to think that you only need to add a few electrical motors to the 200-250km/h trains to increase their speeds to 350-380km/h.

In order for the trains to run at 350-380km/h, you must have tracks, bridges, tunnels, reliable signaling system, safety procedures specifically designed and built for 350-380km/h operation. You also need trains with low derail coefficient even at 350-380km/h and comparable comfortable level.

Once the infrastructure of the railway is built, it is next to impossible to change. However, it is muck easier to replace or upgrade rolling stocks.

Last edited by Bird01; November 1st, 2010 at 01:56 AM.
Bird01 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2010, 02:09 AM   #269
SamuraiBlue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,232
Likes (Received): 195

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bird01 View Post
The 350-380kmh high speed railway is a highly integrated, complicated system, rolling stock is just part of it. It may not be even the most important part. It is naive to think that you only need to add a few electrical motors to the 200-250mph trains to increase their speeds to 350-380mph.

In order for the trains to run at 350-380mph, you must have tracks, bridges, tunnels, reliable signaling system, safety procedures specifically designed and built for 350-380mph operation. You also need trains with low derail coefficient even at 350-380mph and comparable comfortable level.

Once the infrastructure of the railway is built, it is next to impossible to change. However, it is muck easier to replace or upgrade rolling stocks.
Nothing wrong but as a devil's advocate.
You first need a train that can sustain 400Km/h commercial speed in the first place for all the infrastructure to work properly and as you have said trains cannot reach 350-380Km/h speed by just sticking in few more electrical motors and if you want them to remain working for a long time you'll need better cooling systems and better motors that can withstand the higher electrical current necessary to achieve that speed.
Working electrical motors beyond safety margin may seem to work at the beginning but it wears out the motors and gears quickly requiring them to be replaced more often running maintenance costs higher. Without proper structural design and bogies the riding qualities would also degrade with vibration becoming more violent.

In other words you need all of them in order to obtain a comfortable ride at commercial speeds over 350Km/h.
SamuraiBlue no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2010, 04:37 AM   #270
Bird01
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epi View Post
Considering these Chinese trains are basically reverse engineered or add-ons of foreign technology, I wonder if they just stripped a bunch of components, put the power up a bit and are running them beyond what the Europeans/Japanese would safely run it at.
I did some search and found following interest claims:

According to the CEO, Xiaogang Zhao, of CSR (China South Rail Corp) :

1.Their 350-380km/h train is not related to the original design of E2 from Japan.
2.Over 10K engineers, designers were working on the project day and night, even on Saturdays and Sundays for 2 years.
3.The bogie is redesigned to support high speed. The new train's derail coefficient has been reduced by .37 from .73 of old train. The new train running at higher speed is safer than the old train running at lower speed.
4.The noisy is at 67dB when running at 350km/h, which is similar to the old trains running at 250km/h.
5.The strength of train is designed at 6000MPa, which is 50% higher than international standard of 4000MPa.
Bird01 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2010, 05:49 AM   #271
greenlion
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 374
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Shall any lines be newly constructed at speed level faster than 350 km/h, such as 380 km/h?
well, basic on current trains we don't need 380km/h tracks, or you should say trains are designed to suit the tracks, speaking of the "constant speed", CRH380A/B/C is just designed for commercial use at the 350km/h tracks.

Speed data of CRH trains
Code:
Type     design speed  comstant speed  top operating speed  top test speed
CRH1A/B/E    250km/h       200km/h           220km/h         252km/h
CRH2A/B/E    250km/h       220km/h           250km/h         260km/h
CRH5A        250km/h       200km/h           250km/h         250km/h
CRH2C        350km/h       330km/h           362km/h         394.2km/h
CRH3C        350km/h       330km/h           370km/h         394.3km/h
CRH380A/B/C  380km/h       350km/h           380km/h         414.6km/h (CRH380A)
greenlion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2010, 08:59 AM   #272
greenlion
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 374
Likes (Received): 30

CSR Official news about CRH380A

http://www.csrgc.com.cn/ens/xwzx/2010-10-29/3359.shtml

Quote:
CSR equips Shanghai-Hangzhou intercity high-speed railway with CHR380A EMUs

Contributed by the publicity departments of CSR Group and CSR Corporation Limited 2010-10-29

On October 26, Shanghai-Hangzhou intercity high-speed railway was open to traffic, and all the EMUs put into operation are CRH380A new-generation high-speed EMUs developed and manufactured by CSR Qingdao Sifang Co., Ltd. The maximum operation speed of CRH380A will be 380km/h, the continuous operation speed will be 350km/h, and the time of travel between Shanghai and Hangzhou will be reduced to 45 minutes.

CRH380A was developed by CSR through integrating production, learning, research with practice, in combination with domestic first-class research institutes and industrial resources, under the unified organization and guidance of the Ministry of Railways. In August 2010, the first batch of CRH380A new-generation high-speed EMUs were released offline at CSR. On September 28, the model created the world’s highest speed of 416.6km/h during the trial operation on Shanghai-Hangzhou intercity high-speed railway.

CRH380A is the latest result of the independent innovation of Chinese high-speed railways, and the overall design of EMUs reflects ten system innovations: low-resistance streamline head, vibration mode system matching, high-air-tightness body, safe and reliable high-speed bogie, advanced noise control technology, high-performance traction system, high-speed dual-pantograph current-receiving performance, safe and environment-friendly brake system, human-oriented passenger interface and outstanding intelligent performance. According to the source, each EMU put into operation is marshaled by eight coaches, is staffed with 494 crew members, and involves a sightseeing zone, first-class seat boxes, a first-class seat coach, a second-class seat coach and a dinning coach to satisfy the individualized travel demands of passengers at different levels. It is reported that CSR has delivered 19 CRH380A high-speed EMUs to the Shanghai Railway Bureau, all of which will serve Shanghai-Hangzhou intercity high-speed railway.

CSR is a Chinese high-speed train industrialization base that plays a domestic leading role in EMU R & D and manufacture. So far, the company has delivered 199 high-speed EMUs, including seat and sleeping coaches with a speed of ranging from 200km/h to 380km/h and in different marshalling forms, thus becoming the country’s largest EMU contributor. It is reported that the company is stepping up the development of 16-in-one CRH380A new-generation EMU and will introduce it soon.

Shanghai-Hangzhou intercity high-speed railway is another 350km/h high-speed railway in China, which connects Shanghai and Hangzhou with a full length of 350km. The EMUs will satisfy different travel demands in nonstop, section-stop and station-stop manners, effectively alleviate the railway transport tension in the Yangtze River Delta, and boost the economic development of the eastern area.

Contributed by the publicity departments of CSR Group and CSR Corporation Limited
greenlion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2010, 10:49 AM   #273
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
well, basic on current trains we don't need 380km/h tracks, or you should say trains are designed to suit the tracks, speaking of the "constant speed", CRH380A/B/C is just designed for commercial use at the 350km/h tracks.

Speed data of CRH trains
Code:
Type     design speed  comstant speed  top operating speed  top test speed
CRH2C        350km/h       330km/h           362km/h         394.2km/h
CRH3C        350km/h       330km/h           370km/h         394.3km/h
CRH380A/B/C  380km/h       350km/h           380km/h         414.6km/h (CRH380A)
So when in June 2011, Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway shall open, does it mean that the speeds will not be any faster than on the existing Wuhan-Guangzhou high-speed railway?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2010, 11:09 AM   #274
greenlion
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 374
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
So when in June 2011, Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway shall open, does it mean that the speeds will not be any faster than on the existing Wuhan-Guangzhou high-speed railway?
Honestly I'm not sure. it'll be decided by the capability of tracks I believe. but as the Jinghu PDL is planned to use CRH380B, we could expect a higher speed than Wuguang PDL which is serving with CRH2C and CRH3C
greenlion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2010, 12:46 PM   #275
Mika Montwald
Improving Earth
 
Mika Montwald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Planet EARTH
Posts: 111
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epi View Post
... ... Considering these Chinese trains are basically reverse engineered or add-ons of foreign technology, I wonder if they just stripped a bunch of components, put the power up a bit and are running them beyond what the Europeans/Japanese would safely run it at. ... ...


It takes so much Hi-Tech expertise to increase the HST speed for every 10 km/hr on from the little nut and bolt to the ballast less HSR track.
Otherwise, the French, Germans, and Japan had already done that a long time ago.


What about the Numero Uno Supercomputer on Earth (TIANHE 1A) who
just knocked the pants off Americanese (Cray_Jaguar) while eating the dust left by (TIANHE 1A)?


Get this: (TIANHE 1A) is 43% faster than the Americanese (Cray_Jaguar)

--------------------------

Are you going to say that --- Oh yeah, China just tweak the GPU & CPU by overclocking them and
ignoring the Fire Safety hazard. And, (TIANHE 1A) will blow-up anytime ??



--------------------------

Next time before you comment on anything about HST or any China related matter, please perform a proper due-diligence personally.
Stressing the word: Personally
Otherwise, you are an embarrassment for being xxxxese Ignoramus.



Do read this link: Post # 180 by GreenLion
An article by International Railway Journal

URL: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=#post65928355

--------------------------

NOTE:

Canada can never afford to build Ballast less HST track for a long time to come for Toronto -- Montreal corridor, let alone from Vancouver to Halifax.
Especially if Canuckese are always brown-nosing its Southern neighbor and spending money unnecessarily on ice hockey and beer.
__________________
HUGE DENSE FOREST Covering Cities


Are you studying the Basic Traditional Proper CIVILIZED BEHAVIORS <弟子规> ??

Last edited by Mika Montwald; November 1st, 2010 at 01:15 PM.
Mika Montwald no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2010, 01:00 PM   #276
stingstingsting
railover
 
stingstingsting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 199
Likes (Received): 29

Mika, as much as Epi's statements were questionable, I think what you said and calling Canadians 'Canucks' its pretty offensive and insulting. No one should use that tone or those terms. Just the same with 'Chinks' and 'Japs'.

I mean seriously, if you have a point to make and facts to show, try to be a bit more objective huh?

Come on...
stingstingsting no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2010, 01:40 PM   #277
dumbfword
Habitual Line Stepper
 
dumbfword's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 293
Likes (Received): 563

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Montwald View Post


It takes so much Hi-Tech expertise to increase the HST speed for every 10 km/hr on from the little nut and bolt to the ballast less HSR track.
Otherwise, the French, Germans, and Japan had already done that a long time ago.


What about the Numero Uno Supercomputer on Earth (TIANHE 1A) who
just knocked the pants off Americanese (Cray_Jaguar) while eating the dust left by (TIANHE 1A)?


Get this: (TIANHE 1A) is 43% faster than the Americanese (Cray_Jaguar)

--------------------------

Are you going to say that --- Oh yeah, China just tweak the GPU & CPU by overclocking them and
ignoring the Fire Safety hazard. And, (TIANHE 1A) will blow-up anytime ??



--------------------------

Next time before you comment on anything about HST or any China related matter, please perform a proper due-diligence personally.
Stressing the word: Personally
Otherwise, you are an embarrassment for being xxxxese Ignoramus.



Do read this link: Post # 180 by GreenLion
An article by International Railway Journal

URL: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=#post65928355

--------------------------

NOTE:

Canada can never afford to build Ballast less HST track for a long time to come for Toronto -- Montreal corridor, let alone from Vancouver to Halifax.
Especially if Canuckese are always brown-nosing its Southern neighbor and spending money unnecessarily on ice hockey and beer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Sequoia
__________________
"I am the color red in a world full of black and white"
dumbfword no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2010, 02:09 PM   #278
SamuraiBlue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,232
Likes (Received): 195

Although completely off topic the TIANHE 1A is made of 100% western technology (GPU by NVIDIA CPU by ATI) utilizing CUDA and other NVIDIA proprietorial technology.
SamuraiBlue no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2010, 02:17 PM   #279
Mika Montwald
Improving Earth
 
Mika Montwald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Planet EARTH
Posts: 111
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Although completely off topic the TIANHE 1A is made of 100% western technology (GPU by NVIDIA CPU by ATI) utilizing CUDA and other NVIDIA proprietorial technology.
Sorry off topic -- I will reply you all on the (TIANHE 1A) thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1245041

BTW, the key is the special (Made in China) communication chips and the software that interconnect all those thousands GPUs and CPUs.
__________________
HUGE DENSE FOREST Covering Cities


Are you studying the Basic Traditional Proper CIVILIZED BEHAVIORS <弟子规> ??
Mika Montwald no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2010, 06:51 PM   #280
honwai1983
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 68
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbfword View Post
Train coupler I believe. Does China plan to couple two 16 train sets?
No...
Just copule two 8car train into 16car EMU set
honwai1983 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium