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Old November 4th, 2010, 03:52 PM   #301
riles28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
to those who claim CRH380A is just a copy of Japanese design, the following pictures are some of the 20 designs CSR made for CRH380A

/10082619004e4447db7aa70167.jpg[/img]








See the Chinese are trying to make a originally design high speed train and they trying to make out from regular design of a high speed train.
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Old November 4th, 2010, 05:18 PM   #302
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The problem is not use foreign technologies the problem is to respect Intellectual properties, I work on Industrial Design projects and we work with a lot of Chinese firms, and there is a lot of conflicts with IP issues.
I don´t doubt of the hard work of Chinese engineers, China effort on HST is also good for the planet, but rules must by clear and we have to respect them. Anyway I think that China will be a reference in HST technology in the next few years.
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Old November 4th, 2010, 06:04 PM   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riles28 View Post
See the Chinese are trying to make a originally design high speed train and they trying to make out from regular design of a high speed train.
First I would like to point out that one thing is the exteranl design of a train carbody and another is the technology used for given train.

The CRH 389 versions A and B are clearly derived from japanese and german technogly, and - in this case-has the orginal two tecnologies have been mixed and upgraded in the twon chinese versions, and dhe Chiones can do that.
Nothing wrong about that. The Korean rail technology is cleary derived from the modern French HST .
Also, at the very beginning , the japanese rail technology was clearly derived from European technology and, ultimately, the initial rail technology was British, but this is not tantamount to say that the world is copying modern British HST technology .

With regard to the design of the external carbodies of the future VHSTs -V 380-420 chinese trains, shown on the pictures posted above, they are concept designs, and designs 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 are new, original ones.

Some of them resemble those made by Priestamgoode design company, which works with the Chinese, a and some of them, like concept-desgin number 9 resemble the Korean VHST EMU-400X.

In designs 10 an 11 (CRH V380 A and CRH V380 B ) the stylistic influence of the japanese and german designs seems to be clearly detectable.
Nothing wrong with that.

Futhermore the design of a given train carbody is clearly influenced by aerodinamic law, safety factors etc, which every carbody designer has to take into considerations..

Therefore in designing a given type of train there are some common factors which have nothing to do with a given nation or nationality..



for example see:

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&&sa=X...04067f8945f75f

This company works for china as well. Like other nations Chinese can have an Italian or German or British stylist for the train external signature. Designer company are working globally.
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Old November 4th, 2010, 06:06 PM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riles28 View Post
See the Chinese are trying to make a originally design high speed train and they trying to make out from regular design of a high speed train.
please do not quote all the photos, especially when your reply is so close to the quoted post.
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Old November 4th, 2010, 08:25 PM   #305
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This one looks awesome, I hope it turns into a production model.

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Old November 4th, 2010, 08:27 PM   #306
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Oh by the way, where are these models presented? A factory, a rail museum,, expo?? can public have a look?
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Old November 4th, 2010, 08:57 PM   #307
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I think the models were presented in CSR's Qingdao factory, and not accessible to the public. It was said according to some 'insider' that even the pictures should not have been disclosed. Several models were also tested in wind tunnels at different institions, and of course no information on that would be disclosed either.
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Old November 4th, 2010, 09:19 PM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragel View Post


I think the models were presented in CSR's Qingdao factory, and not accessible to the public. It was said according to some 'insider' that even the pictures should not have been disclosed. Several models were also tested in wind tunnels at different institions, and of course no information on that would be disclosed either.
Here's some quotations on CRH380A aerodynamics from their website

http://www.csrgc.com.cn/ens/xwzx/2010-03-05/1948.shtml

===

"The second day after the research was initiated, the team headed by LU Qiang was established, which gathered the best aerodynamics specialists and experts in China coming from Tsinghua University, Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics, Peking University and other top universities in China, China Academy of Railway Sciences and businesses attached to the Ministry of Railways. "

===

"Studying in the perspective of aerodynamics, they found that the power loss of the high-speed train’s pantograph accounted for 14% of the entire train’s power losses. And Some decorations in the carriages would bring negative effects on energy-saving. While submitting the research results to the Ministry of Railways, they also included this finding.

After reading the report, ZHANG Shuguang headed to the CSR plant and asked the workers to remove the aesthetic decorations. After that, he asked LU Qiang to organize further studies and optimize the form of pantograph. Later, ZHANG told LU Qiang that their research results helped to reduce the high-speed train power losses by 7%. "

===

"After group discussions at the Ministry of Railways, they believed that overall consideration should be given to aerodynamics, noises and vibration to optimize the system. Attention should not be focused on the axle weight alone.


Now they knew where the problem lay. The Ministry of Railways invited hundreds of specialists in structure, streamline and vibration. These specialists worked together with Institute of Mechanics of Chinese Academy of Sciences, Xi’an Academy of Aircraft Strength, Chinese Aerodynamics Research Center, and Noise Lab of Tongji University to solve this problem. After a number of simulation tests and comparisons, the best design was finally adopted. "
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Old November 5th, 2010, 12:25 AM   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
It begs the question, "Why did they select the one that resembles Japanese design the most?"
Your question has a false presupposition. It does not resemble any existing Japanese design. At all. It expresses in fact a very unjapanese taste and sensibility. There is a boldness and fierceness to it that you don't find in Japanese design or art.
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Old November 5th, 2010, 12:31 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by pcrail View Post
I do not think so. The new design is for CRH380B, the Velaro design is for CRH380BL.
That doesn't seem correct. The rumors on the street are that the new front cone will appear in CRH380B's (whether 16 car or 8 car versions) produced by a different factory, and is not specific to the length of the train-sets.
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Old November 5th, 2010, 09:47 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
It begs the question, "Why did they select the one that resembles Japanese design the most?"
It begs the question, why do the Europeans claims it's from them?
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Old November 5th, 2010, 10:51 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
I realized that for all of these models nose length is relatively similar if not identical. There is none with extreme long nose like Japanese E5 or rather shorter nose like ICE3. What might be the reason for this? Is there a limitation independent of aerodynamic design?
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Old November 5th, 2010, 11:21 PM   #313
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Isn't it the effect of the train entering tunnels?
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Old November 6th, 2010, 12:20 AM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit View Post
It begs the question, why do the Europeans claims it's from them?
When both Japanese and European make the same claim, it is clear now that the Chinese design is indigenous and do not look like any at all.
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Old November 6th, 2010, 05:41 AM   #315
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Indigenous or not indigenous, we can only discuss about the exterior of the train because we have no reliable tech info about the electrical and mechanical aspects. I think that Chinese engineers have done a great jot on reverse engineering CRH380-A seems to be a good train and I repeat this country will be a reference in the next few years on HSR. But talking about the aspects that we know the exterior and structural design the CHR380-A is derived from E2 Shinkansen just take a look ( carefully ): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Se...ya_Station.jpg
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Old November 6th, 2010, 08:23 AM   #316
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Which one of these trains China aims to break the speed record of 574.8km/h?
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Old November 6th, 2010, 09:53 AM   #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
I realized that for all of these models nose length is relatively similar if not identical. There is none with extreme long nose like Japanese E5 or rather shorter nose like ICE3. What might be the reason for this? Is there a limitation independent of aerodynamic design?
The train with long nose has less wind resistance, but generates more noise. The train with short nose faces more wind resistance, but generates less noise. Many tunnels in Japan have cross-sections of only 60-70m^2. They need the trains with long, and sharp nose to slice through the air in those tunnels or they have to reduce the speeds of the trains.

The tunnels of 350km/h rail roads in China have much bigger cross-sections. For example, the 10km-tunnel of Liu Yang river has the cross section of 160 m^2. Two trains can pass each other in the tunnel under the river at the speeds of 350km/h. The relative speed between two trains can be over 700km/h.
The high speed trains in china don't need very long nose to cross the tunnels because they (tunnels) have very large cross-sections.

Last edited by Bird01; November 17th, 2010 at 01:25 AM.
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Old November 6th, 2010, 05:51 PM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bird01 View Post
The train with long nose has less wind resistance, but generates more noisy. The train with short nose faces more wind resistance, but generates less noisy. Many tunnels in Japan have cross-sections of only 60-70m*2. They need the trains with long, and sharp nose to slice through the air in those tunnels or they have to reduce the speeds of the trains.

The tunnels of 350km/h rail roads in China have much bigger cross-sections. For example, the 10km-tunnel of Liu Yang river has the cross section of 160 m*2. Two trains can pass each other in the tunnel under the river at the speeds of 350km/h. The relative speed between two trains can be over 700km/h.
The high speed trains in china don't need very long nose to cross the tunnels because they (tunnels) have very large cross-sections.
Tnx, I dindt think about the effect of nose length to the noise levels.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 04:51 AM   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
CNR Changchun Railway Vehicle designed a new type of High Speed train front, the official news was published by November 2 2010. and the work is completed.the outlook is described as cheetah by the news.

http://www.chinacnr.com/272-619-3429.aspx

according to rumors on different Chinese forums, this new design will be used on CNR Changchun Railway Vehicle version of CRH380B, so the CRH380B will have two different shapes???




Wow, wind tunnel model! Why they need to spend time and money for a wind tunnel model (extremely energy and money intensive) if they just copied the exterior from other countries as some people here claimed?
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Old November 11th, 2010, 06:27 AM   #320
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I suppose cos this is a new design China is making. Also, they've used designs from the space rockets they've made, from what some people said as well. So I guess thats less money and effort intensive. And I guess thats also why the trains look like rockets imo.
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