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Old December 6th, 2010, 12:28 AM   #501
Nozumi 300
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Quote:
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is this actually fact or just rumor?
The part that is fact is that Alstom complained about the MOR after the manufacturing of the CRH5. And if you know anything about Chinese culture, the outcome is getting shunned indefinitely
That's why you see Alstom begging to try to get back into China's high speed train market with a non-articulated model of the AGV. Unlike before when Alstom outright refused to sell the AGV to the MOR.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 12:54 AM   #502
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1) At this moment, China is investing another 2 Trillions RMB until year 2015
(From Total Budget of 10 Trillions RMB) to do R&D and install Green Power Tech such as (Solar, Nuclear Fission, Nuclear Fusion, and Wind).
China is doing a fantastic job with alternative energy, but its still going to take a lot time even at the Chinese pase. To simplify things, let break down the situation into the current situation and the future situation. At the moment, rails are still effectively running on Coal power, and that's no better than planes running on petroleum products. In the "future", when renewable low pollution alternative energies become readily available, plane could take advantages of those as well if the government is willing to spend the money for research now!

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2) China is also doing R&D on Electric Airplane, but this field can not be the major focus
I think that should be a major focus, there's a lot of potential in that. If China every wants to be a superpower, its not going to get there by copying foreign designs. Aircraft research is prohibitively expensive, so the only firms that could muster the funds to do it is Boeing and Airbus, but neither really has an incentive to do any research on electric aviation, even if they wanted to engine maker like RR and GE will give them sh*t.

China on the other hand obviously have policy makers that think way beyond the short term, and a government that's very much willing to invest in research that pays off in the long run. Imagine what would happen if Comac comes out with a hydrogen plane, that carry more than 100 people, needs no fossil fuels, creates no pollution, and saves costs, while everyone else's design is 5 year's away from test flights. China has an opportunity to do exactly that right now,

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3) In terms of maximum bang for the buck -- CRH HST will beat Airplane hands down
Take one of the least useful CRH Line, i'd say probably the Xi'an Lanzhou section, and compare that to the areas that desperately needs money, the entire ATC network of the country. Can you honestly say the former gets better bang for the buck? The HSR segment will probably cost around 8 billion USD, it took NavCanada less than a billion to completely overhaul the system in Canada. China's system is bigger, but the Chinese have always found ways to do things cheaper then the west, I'd be surprised if the total cost comes out to be more then 5 billion.

Last edited by spkg; December 6th, 2010 at 01:04 AM.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 12:56 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by Nozumi 300 View Post
The part that is fact is that Alstom complained about the MOR after the manufacturing of the CRH5. And if you know anything about Chinese culture, the outcome is getting shunned indefinitely
That's why you see Alstom begging to try to get back into China's high speed train market with a non-articulated model of the AGV. Unlike before when Alstom outright refused to sell the AGV to the MOR.
if they got shunned, how come they still have such a big presence in the new light rail or metro lines around the country?
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Old December 6th, 2010, 01:02 AM   #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozumi 300 View Post
... ...

That's why you see Alstom begging to try to get back into China's high speed train market with a non-articulated model of the AGV. Unlike before when Alstom outright refused to sell the AGV to the MOR.
The heavy price of French Alstom arrogance since year 2000.
See -- 1 Small Wrong Arrogance Step, next in a blink of an eye -- you have fallen from major player to minor player.


Now it is too late to recover, because China CRH train have performed much faster than Alstom AGV.

1) When Alstom AGV improves its operating performance to 400+ km/h, China CRH will already achieve 560+ km/h.


2) Let's assume the democratic Alstom can progress very fast.

When Alstom AGV improves its operating performance to 500+ km/h in year 2015,
China will be testing their new MAGLEVAC train running 1000+ km/h.
Than, I am certain we will hear so many comments that China is getting away yet again, with stealing MAGLEVAC tech from some other nations.


3) By the year 2020, Alstom may consider quitting AGV HST manufacturing, and investing in Cheese business instead.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 02:03 AM   #505
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Why would they need to quit AGV? Do the Japanese need to quit making Shinkansen trains because the MOR isn't buying more trains from Japanese makers? France has two LGV lines under construction with many more planned.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 02:49 AM   #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
its nice to have thousands of engineers working for you for slightly more than a bowl of rice
And what do engineers in Hungary get ? Two bowls of rice, right ? Well I guess that's why they came up with the red sludge masterpiece and......Nothing else.

PS : Think before you speak.

Last edited by snow is red; December 6th, 2010 at 09:09 AM.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 03:03 AM   #507
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Quote:
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if they got shunned, how come they still have such a big presence in the new light rail or metro lines around the country?
Alstom is shunned in the HSR department, not the subways. Two different sections of Alstom.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 06:28 AM   #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spkg View Post
... ... and compare that to the areas that desperately needs money, the entire ATC network of the country. Can you honestly say the former gets better bang for the buck? The HSR segment will probably cost around 8 billion USD, it took NavCanada less than a billion to completely overhaul the system in Canada. China's system is bigger, but the Chinese have always found ways to do things cheaper then the west, I'd be surprised if the total cost comes out to be more then 5 billion.
Sorry: Off topic
In order not to derail this thread -- send me the next back & forth via PM


At this point in time in China does not lack money to invest.
In fact China problem is the other way around.
China has way too much FX reserve (2.7+ Trillions USD & counting).

Since US Fed Bank is printing money like there is no tomorrow,
which means --- USD = Benjamin Franklin Brand Toilet Paper.

The dilemma is -- How to invest China money wisely in what technology sector first?


1) How did you come to the conclusion that China ATC (Air Traffic Controller) system is still using 1970 tech ??

2) Please show me some link / article RE: China Outdated ATC

3) Does NavCanada has IOT -- M2M component inside it?

4) Are you working on this ATC field or your company install NavCanada?

5) If you are on this ATC field, --- Did your company ask FAITC (Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada) to help promote this product inside China ??


As you know, Canadians have the habit of putting all their eggs
covered by Red Maple Leafs in 1 basket on the Land of the Decline.
(Allowing Declining Bald Eagle to suck Canadian Eggs with impunity).
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Last edited by Mika Montwald; December 6th, 2010 at 06:52 AM.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 10:16 AM   #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snow is red View Post
And what do engineers in Hungary get ? Two bowls of rice, right ? Well I guess that's why they came up with the red sludge masterpiece and......Nothing else.

PS : Think before you speak.
were you the one who broke into my gmail account from a chinese ip a couple of weeks ago?

perhaps you people should read the former comment i quoted, boasting about the progress in china

anyhow, maybe a foxconn suicider employee can enlighten some

oh wait
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Old December 6th, 2010, 10:45 AM   #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snow is red View Post
And what do engineers in Hungary get ? Two bowls of rice, right ? Well I guess that's why they came up with the red sludge masterpiece and......Nothing else.

PS : Think before you speak.
don't feed stupid trolls. everybody can see what a clown it is.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 11:18 AM   #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spkg View Post
what do you think the situation would have been if it did explode, and sad to say but things are a lot worse now then that were in 2004, if the same thing god forbid happens on the Acela Express, even if the attack fails, you can get you as$ you're going to get some genital groping every time you board a train as well.
High speed trains Moscow-St. Petersburg have been blown up, twice. What is the security for passengers like?
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its not like China's completely dry of oil, and yes i do think coal is just as bad, certainly in terms of pollution, and oil doesn't creates obnoxious uneducated coal mine owners, who got rich over night, running the world's tourist spots soiling the imagine of the Chinese people.
Most of it is not a problem that is important for Chinese government. Facts are, China is importing oil, but is not importing coal.

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since there no prototypes of electric motors for aviation yet, i can only compare internal combustion engine in cars with electric counter-parts, and yes they are lighter.
Not if you count the weight of accumulators.
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Originally Posted by spkg View Post
And no i'm not saying planes are better than HSR, i just think we should give up on it just because its got a few downsides. The law of diminishing return sates that every additional dollar spent on HSR will be less effective then the last. so instead of building a HSR route from Xi'an to Lanzhou that no one will ever ride, why not spent it on aviation instead.
Xian-Lanzhou, I expect, will be quite popular and necessary.

China has no plans for HSR into Tibet because of mountains and permafrost. Just slow railways. They are building airports, too - but nevertheless lots of people travel on slow trains to Lhasa.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 02:43 PM   #512
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Test speed of CRH380BL reached 451.1km/h, but they changed the designed fomation 8M8T to 10M6T in the test, so you can say it is a modified train
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Old December 6th, 2010, 03:11 PM   #513
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CIT400's new design by CNR Tangshan, from Modern Railway 2010






Last edited by greenlion; December 6th, 2010 at 04:04 PM.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 03:31 PM   #514
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Quote:
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Test speed of CRH380BL reached 451.1km/h, but they changed the designed fomation 8M8T to 10M6T in the test, so you can say it is a modified train
Can we say it had 18.4 * (10/8) = 23MW of power?
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Old December 6th, 2010, 06:50 PM   #515
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Quote:
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Test speed of CRH380BL reached 451.1km/h, but they changed the designed fomation 8M8T to 10M6T in the test, so you can say it is a modified train
I agree that this would be considered a modified train, even though there are no engineering modification done to the trainset (i.e. change bogie). The change in configuration gave it a power advantage compare to a operating commercial train.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 07:44 PM   #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
CIT400's new design by CNR Tangshan, from Modern Railway 2010





when's the version of CRH380B with modified/elongated front cone (shown in these pictures) going to come out, do you know?
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Old December 6th, 2010, 08:04 PM   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post

perhaps you people should read the former comment i quoted, boasting about the progress in china
Uh.....Just because Hungary is a non-progressive country, it does not mean the Hungarian people are any less boastful than the Chinese or anyone here.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 08:12 PM   #518
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Quote:
Test speed of CRH380BL reached 451.1km/h, ... ...
For those people who aggressively and vehemently insist that China stole the 486+ km/h HST tech from other nations, ... ... ...

Next time before you post anything to challenge
China Mind Boggling Technology progress, please
consider the facts below:


1) (Year 2006) Siemens fastest Velaro (Velaro E) -- Max Operating Speed = 404 km/h

2) (Year 2010) CSR CRH380A-6041L -- Max Operating Speed = 486 km/h

3) (Year 2010) CNR CRH380BL -- Max Operating Speed = 451 km/hr

--------------------------------------------------


Let me ask you these qualifying questions ... ...


1) If China CSR stole the (extra 82 km/h) faster speed from Siemens, then -- would not it be so easy in (Year 2010) for Siemens to run the Velaro E for the same 486+ km/h speed?

2) Why after 4 years has passed since (Year 2006) -- Siemens has not shown it can run their Velaro E at 486 km/h??

3) If stealing a tech from another country who has completely different language is so easy for China CSR, then -- would not it be much, much easier for China CNR Tangshan to steal the (extra 35 km/h) faster speed technology from CSR Qingdao who happen to be located inside China and using the same language and governed by the same Ministry of Railway --- in order to produce the same 486+ km/h performance ??

--------------------------------------------------

If you can solidly refute the above 3 questions, then
send us more of your postings that China steal your country technology.
Please always belittle and derogate China progress.
Please do not be too hush and quiet.
I personally enjoy the heated discussions.

---
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Last edited by Mika Montwald; December 6th, 2010 at 08:35 PM.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 09:22 PM   #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Montwald View Post
For those people who aggressively and vehemently insist that China stole the 486+ km/h HST tech from other nations, ... ... ...

Next time before you post anything to challenge
China Mind Boggling Technology progress, please
consider the facts below:


1) (Year 2006) Siemens fastest Velaro (Velaro E) -- Max Operating Speed = 404 km/h

2) (Year 2010) CSR CRH380A-6041L -- Max Operating Speed = 486 km/h

3) (Year 2010) CNR CRH380BL -- Max Operating Speed = 451 km/hr

--------------------------------------------------


Let me ask you these qualifying questions ... ...


1) If China CSR stole the (extra 82 km/h) faster speed from Siemens, then -- would not it be so easy in (Year 2010) for Siemens to run the Velaro E for the same 486+ km/h speed?

2) Why after 4 years has passed since (Year 2006) -- Siemens has not shown it can run their Velaro E at 486 km/h??

3) If stealing a tech from another country who has completely different language is so easy for China CSR, then -- would not it be much, much easier for China CNR Tangshan to steal the (extra 35 km/h) faster speed technology from CSR Qingdao who happen to be located inside China and using the same language and governed by the same Ministry of Railway --- in order to produce the same 486+ km/h performance ??

--------------------------------------------------

If you can solidly refute the above 3 questions, then
send us more of your postings that China steal your country technology.
Please always belittle and derogate China progress.
Please do not be too hush and quiet.
I personally enjoy the heated discussions.

---
well, they don't have such a nice track to run that fast...
and the point of developing a train is not to make it as fast as possible
I am not saying Chinese Companies stole or copy design from other countries, I am saying trains are not made to race
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Old December 6th, 2010, 10:25 PM   #520
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They race to find design flaws, and push the advancement of rail technology. If we never had the space race then many things we take as granted (GPS, DirectTV, etc) probably wouldn't exist. Otherwise why did the French or the Japanese do it.
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