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Old December 8th, 2010, 06:11 PM   #561
Substructure
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makita09
No, I didn't mean "do you think this is propaganda ?", or "do you believe it actually happened". I meant "can you provide me with an official link regarding this record", a.k.a not from the Chinese government. I'd just like an independent confirmation this was done on an unmodified train.

I for one am happy to see China succeeding and contributing to humanity with better technology (like Japan did for instance), just as long as it's not for a nationalist purpose.
And this is precisely what I fear when I read some reactions on this thread.

After all, despite skin color, we all are a family living together on this small planet, so let's stop identifying ourselves to some pieces of land (China vs "the West"), and enjoy what can human genius create.

Thanks
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Old December 8th, 2010, 06:54 PM   #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Substructure View Post
... ...
"do you think this is propaganda ?", or "do you believe it actually happened". I meant "can you provide me with an official link regarding this record", a.k.a not from the Chinese government. I'd just like an independent confirmation this was done on an unmodified train ... ...
Let's ask you 3 questions:

1) Is French Alstom people smarter than you?

2) Why is Alstom (the modified Train Speed Record Holder) suddenly willing to share everything with China?

3) Did you do the mandatory search around with Google before you post?
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Old December 8th, 2010, 07:39 PM   #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Substructure View Post
Hello everybody,

When China pretends they have run a train at 457km/h, was it on an unmodified train, and was that certified by an independent organism ? Otherwise, if their train was actually modified for speed (despite claiming the opposite), the record would be less impressive.

Thanks for clarifying the issue (I've noted that many Chinese tend to be patriotic, so it'd be great if we could avoid heated discussions )
Actually, It is 486.1km/h with unmodified CRH-380A
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Old December 8th, 2010, 07:49 PM   #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Substructure View Post
makita09
No, I didn't mean "do you think this is propaganda ?", or "do you believe it actually happened". I meant "can you provide me with an official link regarding this record", a.k.a not from the Chinese government. I'd just like an independent confirmation this was done on an unmodified train.

I for one am happy to see China succeeding and contributing to humanity with better technology (like Japan did for instance), just as long as it's not for a nationalist purpose.
And this is precisely what I fear when I read some reactions on this thread.

After all, despite skin color, we all are a family living together on this small planet, so let's stop identifying ourselves to some pieces of land (China vs "the West"), and enjoy what can human genius create.

Thanks
no, there is no independent confirmation. It's probably just something thought up by a few over-enthusiatistic, over-patriotic Chinese fans. Why trust the Chinese media? They have a queer view on everything anyway.

Moreover, wouldn't it be better to get a real life rather than quibbling on the internet with for all you know jobless middle-aged men living in the basement of their mothers' houses about something as unimportant as a supposed speed record supposedly made half way around the world?

So, believe what you will, and don't take everything too seriously.

If it ever occurs in the future that someone tells you that the only jobs there are are with Chinese firms and that you have to speak Chinese to get them, ask that someone about independent confirmation of what he claims too.... Don't you ever forget that: INDEPENDENT CONFIRMATIONS, and Chinese confirmations are not independent
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Old December 8th, 2010, 08:07 PM   #565
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I don't think Substructure intent to discredit the 486.1kph record, it's reasonable to ask for independent confirmation on records like this. I'm not sure what independent verification the French had during the V150 run, but probably third party abroad the train with GPS receiver? In this case it'd be extremely difficult to verify that the train is unmodified, you will have to have a great deal of understanding of the train's design to be able to look for modifications, so if you are looking someone other than the Chinese then I guess not many are qualified. On the other hand, there is really no reason for the MOR to fabricate this record, they are already ahead in the HSR arena and if you browse the most popular Chinese news sites the comments are generally negative towards breaking this or that kind of records.
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Old December 8th, 2010, 08:57 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
I don't think Substructure intent to discredit the 486.1kph record, it's reasonable to ask for independent confirmation on records like this. I'm not sure what independent verification the French had during the V150 run, but probably third party abroad the train with GPS receiver? .
it is not for Guinness world record , why need independent third party confirmation
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Old December 8th, 2010, 09:27 PM   #567
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umm, there's MULTIPLE videos proving the speed records, from both outside and inside the train, showing the speedometer in the driver's cabin, the speed display in the passenger cabins, and the train zooming by the station from the outside (someone can easily prove the speed of the train from video with knowledge of how far it traveled and how many seconds it took to go that far, very basic physics). So really, stop trolling.
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Old December 8th, 2010, 10:04 PM   #568
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when china paid for those technologies, then China has the ownership. those technologies belong to china.
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Old December 8th, 2010, 11:30 PM   #569
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Quote:
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Guys,we have four types of crh380 now,
CRH380A/AL,CSR Sifang
CRH380B/BL,CNR Tangshan & CNR Changchun, in cooperation with siemens.
CRH380C, CNR Changchun, the new design disclosed at world HSR conference, as CRH380B-6201L,it will change to be CRH380C,will use HITACHI transformer and motors, of course transfered to chinese factories. 25 trainsets ordered.
CRH380D/DL , BST
AHH so much to keep track of...... so the CRH380B/BL order remains unchanged right? and the new CRH380C is an additional tack on order??
and also wondering if you have a url link to source the statement... not that i don't believe you, just to confirm and make it look more valid on wikipedia... you know how the editors are on there....

Last edited by Fan Railer; December 8th, 2010 at 11:38 PM.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 01:15 AM   #570
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For test runs, its not hard to look at the videos and caculate the speed, and I'm pretty sure its been done by other HSR manufaturers and they wouldn't be quiet if they found any problems

For the modification, it obviously had more than 5 cars, and the wheel diameter is visible in videos, independent observers wouldn't be able to say anything about what's under the cabin any more than you would from videos

As for service speed, thousands of people take the train and its not hard to figure out the time difference between departure and arrival, then divide by distance.

-

Those answers do not require in depth knowledge of HSRs, I understand some Europeans are looking for ways to convince themselves they still had the lead in HSR, that's human nature, but what you believe does not change what is in reality.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 10:46 AM   #571
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Are there videos or pics of the BL going at 457 km/h?
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Old December 9th, 2010, 11:08 AM   #572
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Again people, I absolutely don't question the 487kph record.

I just want to hear it was set on a perfectly stock, unmodified train, and that it was acknowledge by an independent source (not run by the Chinese government).
Obviously, if there were some little visible modifications like the French did for their TGV record, this changes everything.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 02:25 PM   #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Substructure View Post
Obviously, if there were some little visible modifications like the French did for their TGV record, this changes everything.
some "little" visible modifications like the French did? That's not quite respectful of the work the French engineers had to do to create that monster V150.

Besides, nothing about this record is so important that it can change "everything". Take it or leave it. It's not that important.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 04:01 PM   #574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Substructure View Post
Again people, I absolutely don't question the 487kph record.

I just want to hear it was set on a perfectly stock, unmodified train, and that it was acknowledge by an independent source (not run by the Chinese government).
Obviously, if there were some little visible modifications like the French did for their TGV record, this changes everything.
OK, in order not to disappoint you, they did do some tweaks- they installed special made over head wire in that 70 km section where they conducted 480 kph speed test.

Here is what i posted in another thread.

----------------------------------------------------------
Here is an interesting part of HSR overhead contact wire introduction by CHR 380 chief designer zhang shuguang (sorry for chinese)

解密高科技接触网助列车高速奔跑
  高铁列车不断挑战速度极限的一大制约因素,是如何确保列车高速运行中受电弓能持续不断从2.75万伏的高压导线中获取强大电流。
  时速350公里的持续运营状态下,列车受电弓以每秒100多米的惊人速度“刷”过接触网,因此接触网必须高度平顺,且导电性能绝佳,列车才能持续高速奔跑。否则受电过程有一点儿中断,列车速度就会立马下降。
  从京津城际到京沪高铁,中铁电气化局已经实现了高铁接触网系统从外方技术主导到完全自主化设计和施工的跨越。据透露,每段平均长度为1.4至1.6公里的接触网导线,架设过程中水平精度误差允许在0.1毫米以下,而京沪高铁的实际精度达到了0.03至0.05毫米的世界领先水平,这成为列车创造出486.1公里时速的重要保障。
  尤其引以为傲的是,昨日试验运行的先导段中,有70公里的接触网导线采用完全自主研发的铜合金高强高导材料,以高强度确保接触网平顺的同时,导电性能又极佳,成为京沪先导段的“秘密武器”,“和谐号”380A列车正是在这段区间加速冲刺创造了新的历史纪录。

Google translation

Decryption technology to help train high-speed running OCS
High-Speed Rail trains constantly challenging the limits of a major constraint is how to ensure high-speed train pantograph operation can be continued from the 27,500-volt high-voltage wire to get a strong current.
350 km per hour under continuous operation, the train pantograph more than 100 meters per second at an alarming rate, "brush" over the catenary, the catenary must be highly smooth and excellent conductivity, high-speed trains to continue running. Otherwise, the process a bit by the power interruption, the train speed will immediately drop.
From the Beijing-Tianjin inter-city to the Beijing-Shanghai High Speed Railway, China Railway Electrification Bureau has achieved high-speed rail catenary system from foreign technology led to a completely independent design and construction of the cross. It was revealed that the average length of each 1.4 to 1.6 kilometers catenary wire, set up to allow the process of horizontal accuracy of 0.1 mm below the error, but the actual accuracy of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed rail reach from 0.03 to 0.05 mm of the world leading level, which became 486.1 km per hour trains to create an important protection.
In particular pride is the leading segment yesterday's test run, 70 km of catenary wires of full self-developed high strength and high conductivity copper alloy material, high strength to ensure the smooth catenary, while electrical conductivity and excellent as Beijing and Shanghai leading segment of the "secret weapon", "Harmony" 380A train is accelerated during this interval to create a new sprint record
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Old December 9th, 2010, 04:04 PM   #575
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Old December 9th, 2010, 04:31 PM   #576
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As far as I know it had about as much verification as the previous record for unmodified (other than its own), that is Velaro E in Spain, since I don't recall Siemens giving out any blueprints.

As for non-government observers, I don't understand the obsession, everyone who's seen the video is a non-government observer, and I don't recall anyone from MOR was there to verify the Velaro E record and that didn't bother anyone. If you think not having all the seats arranged in normal seating configuration is modification then you can consider it modified, people can come to their own judgment, a person on the train would not be able to see anything more than what you can see from videos.

One way or another its fairly clear it had 16 passenger carrying cars and not 5 car likes the TGV and built from scratch, that's what the CIT400 is for, anything below that you can believe in whatever you wish if it makes you sleep better.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 05:41 PM   #577
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Was it run at higher power than specification? i.e. more than 100% for a few minutes.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 06:14 PM   #578
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Quote:
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Was it run at higher power than specification? i.e. more than 100% for a few minutes.
Probably, keep in mind it was designed for 380 kph.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 06:25 PM   #579
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I think in the future the UN needs to establish a High Commission on HSR to verify various claims made by different countries. Maybe also one to hold automakers accountable when they announce their cars' 'Ring times.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 07:43 PM   #580
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Originally Posted by mingrady View Post
when china paid for those technologies, then China has the ownership. those technologies belong to china.
I don't think any of those companies dispute that, they only complained when there is a prospect that China may export them.
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