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Old September 26th, 2010, 02:51 PM   #41
greenlion
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Chinese MOR CRH trains order timetable, update with officially name of the CRH380 family given by Chinese MOR

Code:
Date         Factory                  Class     Type       Quantity Quantity   Amount
                                                            (Set)    (Car)
2004-10-10   Alstom & CNR Changchun  250km/h   CRH5A         60       480     620 m ERU
2004-10-12   Bombadier & BST         250km/h   CRH1A         20       160     350 m USD
2004-10-12   Kawasaki  & CSR Sifang  250km/h   CRH2A         60       480   9,300 m RMB
2005-05-31   Bombadier & BST         250km/h   CRH1A         20       160     350 m USD
Jun 2005     CSR Sifang              300km/h   CRH2C         60       480   8,200 m RMB
Nov 2005     Siemens & CNR Tangshan  350km/h   CRH3C         60       480  13,000 m RMB
2007-10-31   BST                     250km/h   CRH1B & 1E    20+20    640   1,000 m ERU
Nov 2007     CSR Sifang              250km/h   CRH2B         10       160   1,200 m RMB
Nov 2007     CSR Sifang              250km/h   CRH2E          6        96     900 m RMB
Dec 2008     CSR Sifang              250km/h   CRH2E         14       224   2,100 m RMB
Jun 2009     CNR Changchun           250km/h   CRH5A         30       240   4,800 m RMB
2009-03-16   CNR Tangshan            380km/h   CRH380BL      70     1,120  27,440 m RMB
2009-03-16   CNR Changchun           380km/h   CRH380BL      30       480  11,760 m RMB
2009-09-28   CSR Sifang              380km/h   CRH380A & AL  40+100 1,920  45,000 m RMB
2009-09-28   Bombadier & BST         380km/h   CRH380C & CL  20+60  1,120  27,400 m RMB
2009-09-28   CNR Changchun           380km/h   CRH380B & BL  40+40    960  23,500 m RMB
2009-09-28   CNR Tangshan            380km/h   CRH380B       20       160   3,920 m RMB
2010-07-16   BST                     250km/h   CRH1A         40       320   5,200 m RMB
2010-09-14   CSR Sifang              250km/h   CRH2A         20       160   3,400 m RMB
Total                                                       860     9,840
                                                            (1230 standard train sets)
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Old September 26th, 2010, 03:06 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
But it is different to CRH380A, which is expected to export to the US by CSR
CRH380A has pretty much 0% chance of being sold in the US, unless China pursues a private railway like Desert Xpress.

1. Kawasaki/JR East IPR lawsuit threat.
2. Even if IPR issue is somehow resolved, crashworthiness problem remains. JR East is looking to sell N700 in the US via a Japan-funded private capital railway because of Shinkansen's inability to run on shared track, and the same problem was inherited by CRH380A because it is 90% Shinkansen E2.

The truth is that CRH380A was built to Chinese railway specification; and is incompatible with the US and European railways.
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Old September 26th, 2010, 03:11 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyalex View Post
China high speed rail will be better than Europe

I know most European won't agree with me
Why? Unlike most Americans we're not generally stuck up in some sort of inflated sense of superiority. China makes some kick-ass stuff. A lot of their infrastructure (particularly airports) are of superior quality to most their Western equivalents. I welcome it. I welcome all progress of humanity regardless of where it takes place.
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Old September 26th, 2010, 04:24 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Three problems.

1. Too big to run on European railway.
2. UIC crashworthiness standard compliance.
3. IPR lawsuits.
Yes I was joking...

I know about the different loading gauge but I'd be surprised if the crash worthiness is any different than a Velaro.

As for IPR, I read some translation of Chinese stories that said Siemens is still involved with the 380B, but the Chinese didn't want publicity.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadiri View Post
Look at the KTX1 at 00:48, there are 18 passengers coaches (+2 technical coaches).
Indeed - as there is with a Eurostar - but no TGV design is allowed on the NBS Cologne - Frankfurt.

The point I was making (maybe it was too subtle) is that there is all this palaver about the <400m ICE3s not being allowed through the Channel Tunnel, yet Siemens and their Chinese partners just made a >400m "ICE3" in the space of a year. Given that DB are ordering a whole new version of ICE3 for this purpose, it's can't be too hard to make a long one.

DB have said the plan to run two trains in multiple. Are they planning to split these in Brussels for two destinations or is this just to get to the arbitrary length limit? If the latter then an EU version of the CRH-380B could be the answer. The extra top speed might be useful too.


Anyway, back on topic...
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Old September 26th, 2010, 05:06 PM   #45
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Quote:
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The point I was making (maybe it was too subtle) is that there is all this palaver about the <400m ICE3s not being allowed through the Channel Tunnel, yet Siemens and their Chinese partners just made a >400m "ICE3" in the space of a year. Given that DB are ordering a whole new version of ICE3 for this purpose, it's can't be too hard to make a long one.

DB have said the plan to run two trains in multiple. Are they planning to split these in Brussels for two destinations or is this just to get to the arbitrary length limit? If the latter then an EU version of the CRH-380B could be the answer. The extra top speed might be useful too.


Anyway, back on topic...
Are platforms in Germany long enough for the >400m trains? or is the issue that they don't think they can get enough business to fill a long train? Anyway I thought the splitting idea was so all passengers moved to one half of the train in an emergency, how can they do that with 2 trains stuck together unless they have adjoining doors?
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Old September 26th, 2010, 08:08 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
Yes I was joking...

I know about the different loading gauge but I'd be surprised if the crash worthiness is any different than a Velaro.
That depends on whether CRH3 has dual-layer aluminum skin shell of proper gauge. Siemens may not have handed over that technology to the Chinese, opting to construct CRH3 with single-layer skin to save on cost and weight, since a crashworthiness standard doesn't exist in Chinese HSR. Japanese did not hand over dual-layer aluminum skin technology either.

Quote:
As for IPR, I read some translation of Chinese stories that said Siemens is still involved with the 380B, but the Chinese didn't want publicity.
Siemens would not allow CRH3 and its derivatives to show up on international markets, make no mistake about it. Based on released pricing info, there is little cost difference between CRH380B and Velaro, so there is no reason for Siemens to "outsource" Velaro production to CNR.
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Old September 26th, 2010, 08:30 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
That depends on whether CRH3 has dual-layer aluminum skin shell of proper gauge. Siemens may not have handed over that technology to the Chinese, opting to construct CRH3 with single-layer skin to save on cost and weight, since a crashworthiness standard doesn't exist in Chinese HSR. Japanese did not hand over dual-layer aluminum skin technology either.


Siemens would not allow CRH3 and its derivatives to show up on international markets, make no mistake about it. Based on released pricing info, there is little cost difference between CRH380B and Velaro, so there is no reason for Siemens to "outsource" Velaro production to CNR.

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Old September 26th, 2010, 09:20 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Why? Unlike most Americans we're not generally stuck up in some sort of inflated sense of superiority. China makes some kick-ass stuff. A lot of their infrastructure (particularly airports) are of superior quality to most their Western equivalents. I welcome it. I welcome all progress of humanity regardless of where it takes place.
lol. With that little comment it's like the pot calling the kettle black.
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Old September 26th, 2010, 09:53 PM   #49
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Velaro D. Dual-layer skin is visible.


CRH380B. Notice the cross section.

Siemens may have used single-layer skin shell to fit more seats into CRH3 as the requirement was 3+2 seating.
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Old September 27th, 2010, 01:57 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
... I welcome all progress of humanity regardless of where it takes place.
Amen to that
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Old September 27th, 2010, 05:35 AM   #51
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Old September 27th, 2010, 08:15 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless View Post
Are platforms in Germany long enough for the >400m trains? or is the issue that they don't think they can get enough business to fill a long train? Anyway I thought the splitting idea was so all passengers moved to one half of the train in an emergency, how can they do that with 2 trains stuck together unless they have adjoining doors?
Two ICE sets are 400m long, long enough to be allowed in the Channel tunnel (the minimum length required is something like 300m). And DB already runs trains like that in Germany. 400m is also the standard maximum train length under the European interoperability standards. All large railway stations have platforms long enough to accomodate such trains.

The minimum length requirement of the Channel Tunnel might be revised btw, as in practice no incident has happend so far where passengers were evacuated by splitting a train in half.
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Old September 27th, 2010, 08:21 AM   #53
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they made some technical improvements, of course
How much is "technical improvements" and how much is "pushing the enveloppe".
In Europe, for a train to be certified to run at speed X it must demonstrate that it can run safely at speed X+10%. The Siemens Velaro-E is certified for 350kph, so it can safely run at up to 385 kph. This train has run at a speed of 400.3 kph, which is a record for an unmodified, stock train.
So it is possible that the higher speeds of the Chinese versions of European HSTs are just a result of the application of different safety margins. Is it a coincidence that so many Chinese trains are about 10% faster than their European or Japanese counterparts?
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Old September 27th, 2010, 08:22 AM   #54
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Doesn't Deutsche Bahn pretty much only buy Siemens high speed trains?
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Old September 27th, 2010, 08:58 AM   #55
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Two ICE sets may be 400m long, but the point is you can't walk between them. (Yes I know it's ridiculous.)

The issue of filing them is another matter. I'm pretty sure they are considering a spilt with one going to Amsterdam. But as an alternative, I think this service will need more than average numbers of business class seats and facilities.
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Old September 27th, 2010, 09:34 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
How much is "technical improvements" and how much is "pushing the enveloppe".
In Europe, for a train to be certified to run at speed X it must demonstrate that it can run safely at speed X+10%. The Siemens Velaro-E is certified for 350kph, so it can safely run at up to 385 kph. This train has run at a speed of 400.3 kph, which is a record for an unmodified, stock train.
So it is possible that the higher speeds of the Chinese versions of European HSTs are just a result of the application of different safety margins. Is it a coincidence that so many Chinese trains are about 10% faster than their European or Japanese counterparts?
designed top speed for CRH380 series is 420km/h, and the test speed reached 440km/h so far
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Old September 27th, 2010, 11:10 AM   #57
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designed top speed for CRH380 series is 420km/h, and the test speed reached 440km/h so far
So they are keeping the 10% safety margin. That is good. China's progress in high speed rail is remarkable. It would be a tragedy if they also were to set the record for worst high speed rail disaster...
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Old September 27th, 2010, 11:11 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
Two ICE sets may be 400m long, but the point is you can't walk between them. (Yes I know it's ridiculous.)
Inconvenient, yes, but why is it "ridiculous"?
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Old September 27th, 2010, 01:24 PM   #59
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designed top speed for CRH380 series is 420km/h, and the test speed reached 440km/h so far
Highly unlikely.

1. CRH380A's power output is no better than other EMUs, and is no improvement over CRH2 and CRH3.
2. The track where the 440 km/hr trial is claimed to have taken place is a 250 km/hr track.
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Old September 27th, 2010, 02:32 PM   #60
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Highly unlikely.

1. CRH380A's power output is no better than other EMUs, and is no improvement over CRH2 and CRH3.
2. The track where the 440 km/hr trial is claimed to have taken place is a 250 km/hr track.
1. Source?
2. So? The track where the TGV set its record setting run of 574km/h (LGV Est) in 2007 is only a 350km/h track.
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