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Old December 9th, 2010, 08:16 PM   #581
LHCHL
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Companies like Siemens or Kawasaki didn't invented everything that exist in rail travel, they all bought it from someone else, it didn't prevent them from exporting their trains (which are technically all based on British rail technology).

Of course they don't want to see a new competitor, one that's very competitive to say the least, but that's something they should have thought of before selling the technology, its a bit late for that now. Only thing you can say is they grossly underestimated Chinese trainmakers.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 09:12 PM   #582
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Quote:
Was it run at higher power than specification? i.e. more than 100% for a few minutes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LHCHL View Post
Probably, keep in mind it was designed for 380 kph.
Here wo go then, if it was run at a higher power then designed, then it was modified for speed. The current land speed record for a modified stock train is 575kph set by the TGV. The current record for a perfectly stock, unmodified train is 404kph, set by the Velaro.

So, the CRH380 is a great accomplishment but did not set a record.
Furthermore, there are some inconsistencies in the original Chinese article, available here :
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english201...c_13533337.htm

Extract :
Quote:
China sets its first world speed record on June 24, 2008. Then, the Beijing-Tianjin CRH3 high-speed train hit a top speed of 394.3 kilometers an hour.
The Velaro set its 404kph record in 2006 and the TGV achieved 575kph in 2007. How was going at 394kph in 2008 a record in anyway ?

I honestly think this whole fuss is misleading, and that the titles claiming "China leading world in high-speed railways" is an unfounded fuel for patriotism.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 10:03 PM   #583
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-The Velaro was designed for 300 kph, running at 404 kph also required running past 100%. And I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "modified", a 2 locomotive + 3 car TGV with specially built bogies is a little different from running a 16 car train pulled out of commercial service to run beyond its operational power level, and that applies to the Velaro as well.

-As for the CRH3 record, the article was inaccurate, it was a Chinese record, not a world record, its not hard to find the error with a simple search.

Of course all speed records have patriotism element in them, otherwise you won't be here trying hard to convince yourself it didn't happen. If telling yourself it was modified make you sleep better then I guess nobody can stop you, just don't beat yourself up next year when CT400 breaks TGV record as well.

As for HSR leadership, that goes beyond trains, and China do have the world's longest and fastest HSR system in commercial service, whether or not that translates into leadership is I guess up to your favorate interpretation.
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Old December 9th, 2010, 10:11 PM   #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Substructure View Post
Here wo go then, if it was run at a higher power then designed, then it was modified for speed. The current land speed record for a modified stock train is 575kph set by the TGV. The current record for a perfectly stock, unmodified train is 404kph, set by the Velaro.

So, the CRH380 is a great accomplishment but did not set a record.
Furthermore, there are some inconsistencies in the original Chinese article, available here :
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english201...c_13533337.htm

Extract :

The Velaro set its 404kph record in 2006 and the TGV achieved 575kph in 2007. How was going at 394kph in 2008 a record in anyway ?

I honestly think this whole fuss is misleading, and that the titles claiming "China leading world in high-speed railways" is an unfounded fuel for patriotism.

This is just lame... For operational trains, record is held by CRH380A by a huge margin. Accept the fact.

Also, one can easily say China is leading high-speed railways. Look at the facts. If China is not leading who is? They have the technology, infrastructure and most importantly will to build. The size and the speed is cream on top.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 10:52 AM   #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Substructure View Post
Here wo go then, if it was run at a higher power then designed, then it was modified for speed. The current land speed record for a modified stock train is 575kph set by the TGV. The current record for a perfectly stock, unmodified train is 404kph, set by the Velaro.

So, the CRH380 is a great accomplishment but did not set a record.
Further to what LHCHL said, the TGV had extra large wheels, the trailers had specially designed bogies with motors in them for testing distributed traction, and the power supply was increased in voltage. Quite serious modifications.

The Chinese took a 16 car set, which has 8 unpowered cars, and replaced 2 of them with 2 standard powered cars instead. It is not exactly true to say this is a 'modified' trainset, when at any point the MOR could reconstitute the train like this for actual operations.

Unfortunately semantics will mean that it is hard to 100% agree unless the test conditions are set by a 3rd party and everyone adheres to it. Nonetheless Guiness were present at the TGV test, not sure about the Velaro or CRH380, we shall find out in time.

But who cares? It is quite obvious that the CRH380 is a faster production train than the Velaro, why wouldn't it be? It s got loads more power and is designed to go faster. I hope you don't keep having sleepless nights worrying over this.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 11:13 AM   #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LHCHL View Post

Companies like Siemens or Kawasaki didn't invented everything that exist in rail travel, they all bought it from someone else, it didn't prevent them from exporting their trains (which are technically all based on British rail technology).
Siemens were pioneers in the electrically powered locomotives in the late 19th century, and have been leaders in the market ever since. They were at the forefront of electric motor technology since such items became industrially important. There were no British companies at the time that were significantly advanced ahead of Siemens.

Kawasaki and Siemens have been instrumental in the evolution of rail travel over the last 100 years. To say anything else is to not know history. Many companies have all had their influence, but to say such innovative companies such as Siemens and Kawasaki 'bought' all of their techonology is absurd. Its not a criticism I would level at them, many other companies yes, but not them.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 11:22 AM   #587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
It is quite obvious that the CRH380 is a faster production train than the Velaro, why wouldn't it be? It s got loads more power and is designed to go faster. I hope you don't keep having sleepless nights worrying over this.
I'm fine with this, the CRH380 is probably the fastest operating stock train and I would actually like to see it here in Europe. I was just confused with this flow of "world record"..

Thanks for your answers.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 01:44 PM   #588
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I don't think any of those companies dispute that, they only complained when there is a prospect that China may export them.
China made some technologies and added them to the newest highspeed trains.
China now exports indigenous technology.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 04:18 PM   #589
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I'd still like to get an answer to the power question. How much was it running above spec?
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Old December 10th, 2010, 04:39 PM   #590
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Siemens showed the first electric train as we know it in 1879 and even built electric trams in China in 1899, so I don't think we can accuse them of stealing anything.

There were railways in Germany in the middle ages. What the Brits did was put steam locomotives on iron rails.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 06:47 PM   #591
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That's not the point, Siemens and Kawasaki can't both have invented everything, whatever one of them invented, the other purchased. Nobody's accusing Siemens of stealing technology, however they are exporting technology that in-cooperated what they purchased, just like everyone else. It does not make what Siemens accomplished themselves any less credible, it just means that they'll be hypocrites for talking down someone else for doing the same thing.
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Old December 10th, 2010, 08:05 PM   #592
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I think the original CRH3's 394kph Chinese record is done with rated power, it got to that speed at a long downhill section of the line.
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Old December 11th, 2010, 12:54 AM   #593
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Or they might find that they need the extra power and change them all to 10 powered cars instead of 8 lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Further to what LHCHL said, the TGV had extra large wheels, the trailers had specially designed bogies with motors in them for testing distributed traction, and the power supply was increased in voltage. Quite serious modifications.

The Chinese took a 16 car set, which has 8 unpowered cars, and replaced 2 of them with 2 standard powered cars instead. It is not exactly true to say this is a 'modified' trainset, when at any point the MOR could reconstitute the train like this for actual operations.

Unfortunately semantics will mean that it is hard to 100% agree unless the test conditions are set by a 3rd party and everyone adheres to it. Nonetheless Guiness were present at the TGV test, not sure about the Velaro or CRH380, we shall find out in time.

But who cares? It is quite obvious that the CRH380 is a faster production train than the Velaro, why wouldn't it be? It s got loads more power and is designed to go faster. I hope you don't keep having sleepless nights worrying over this.
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Old December 11th, 2010, 04:41 PM   #594
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ten innovations of CRH380A

http://www.cnr.cn/gundong/201012/t20...507444973.html
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Old December 11th, 2010, 05:23 PM   #595
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Originally Posted by Fan Railer View Post
AHH so much to keep track of...... so the CRH380B/BL order remains unchanged right? and the new CRH380C is an additional tack on order??
and also wondering if you have a url link to source the statement... not that i don't believe you, just to confirm and make it look more valid on wikipedia... you know how the editors are on there....
It's from Official PTT of CNR in the Modern Railway 2010 exhibition, it says CNR Changchun is manufacturing to series of CRH380,CRH380B/BL and CRH380C, but I think we still need further confirm from the MOR
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Old December 11th, 2010, 05:30 PM   #596
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It's from Official PTT of CNR in the Modern Railway 2010 exhibition, it says CNR Changchun is manufacturing to series of CRH380,CRH380B/BL and CRH380C, but I think we still need further confirm from the MOR
the first set of CRH380C sets to roll off line by March/April 2011.
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Old December 12th, 2010, 08:37 AM   #597
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京沪高铁 Beijing Shanghai High Speed Rail
CCTV Documentary
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Old December 12th, 2010, 04:25 PM   #598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LHCHL View Post

That's not the point, Siemens and Kawasaki can't both have invented everything, whatever one of them invented, the other purchased. Nobody's accusing Siemens of stealing technology, however they are exporting technology that in-cooperated what they purchased, just like everyone else. It does not make what Siemens accomplished themselves any less credible, it just means that they'll be hypocrites for talking down someone else for doing the same thing.
Of course, because it is impossible for another company's research team to develop something in parallel to another company, you know, like how Pepsi obviously bought their formula from Coca-Cola.

Anyway, nobody said that Siemens and Kawasaki both invented everything. But you in effect said that everyone apart from the British stole or bought everything. Obviously you must think in grand generalisations otherwise you wouldn't have posted one and then inferred another from my comment which contained nothing of the sort.

Being a Brit myself I would love to claim everything for my country. But I won't.

Last edited by makita09; December 12th, 2010 at 04:53 PM.
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Old December 12th, 2010, 04:35 PM   #599
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Quote:
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Of course, because it is impossible for another company's research team to develop something in parallel to another company, you know, like how Pepsi obviously bought their formula from Coca-Cola.
If you are trying to argue that both Siemens and Kawasaki invented every single nuts a bolts in their trains, then you better have some concrete evidence to show for it, because its quite a statement to claim two companies both invented everything since, and including the wheel, simultaneously.
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Old December 13th, 2010, 10:59 AM   #600
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China release CRH380A stamp

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