CHINA | High Speed Trainsets

[hmmwv]

Originally Posted by HyperMiler

To "obtain" tech from as many foreign train makers as possible.


France and Germany have indigenous high speed rail technology, China and Spain don't and are foreign vendor reliant. You have a multi-vendor situation when you depend on foreigners for technology.

Maybe that's why US carriers also use A330 and Air France uses 777. Because they all depend on foreigners for technology.

I mean come on, if you dislike the Chinese and enjoy trolling this board, why not come up with something intelligent.

[pietje01]

True, you can't tell for sure that TGV's consist only in French, homegrown tehnology, as well as ICE probably isn't 100% german.

You can discuss the percentage of own technology.

Also , IP (=patents) isn't valid eternally, so the first highspeed technology of Japan, France,... can without any problem being integrated in any new technology.

[get400]

Originally Posted by Ariel74

It's not who's worse in copying...tell me who HASN'T copied????

Yes it is. In China, u can get not just fake watches but fake motorcycles and cars!

The CEO of GE said that the Chinese Government does not want GE to succeed in China. Other countries are much more honest, friendly and reasonable with foreign investors, ie, they dont try to rip them off.

[fragel]

Originally Posted by get400

Yes it is. In China, u can get not just fake watches but fake motorcycles and cars!

The CEO of GE said that the Chinese Government does not want GE to succeed in China. Other countries are much more honest, friendly and reasonable with foreign investors, ie, they dont try to rip them off.

lol, clearly you have no idea what China is like and yet you dump your stereotypical comments right away. GE already succeeded in China when Jack Welch was the CEO back then. It had and still has a very huge market share in China in many areas(appliance, locomotive, medical device, chemical industry, you name it), so my question is why the current CEO failed to achieve what Mr. Welch did many years ago--to expand its market share in China, and instead he is whining like a sore loser. This question is actually not for you, because you lack the ability to understand a thing about this matter.

[Dase]

^ regarding GE you might be right, but to imply that China is NOT a country with one of the worst copyright records couldn't be further from the truth. This is also partly a cultural thing as copycating is seen as a form of flattery in China. Do you really want to dispute that? While the situation is slowly advancing, it's still true that many technology-driven companies are making bad experiences regarding the protection of intellectual property.

[Bandit]

Like those that complain don't have a history of stealing from China and everyone else? You guys stole from each other like crazy in the 1800s. So moral too that you didn't enslave people or go conquering and killing on other people's land to get where you're at? Compared to your histories of when you rose in the world China's is the most peaceful. Since when are CEOs sages of the truth? There was that study that said CEOs have the same sociopathic mentality as serial killers. Since when does GE have the right to succeed in China? GE wants a government handout from China. What else could it be unless you want to violate the rights of the Chinese people when you want to force them to buy your crap they can't afford. In both cases they don't follow the prinicples of democracy and freedom. I especially like the hypocrisy that the US's stimulus pakage is only reserved for American compnies while you whine about how you're suppose to get rich off of China's. Just remember that all the crap that is imported to the West from China is your crap. Chinese don't own it. You just outsourced that labor so your greedy CEOs can make more money at your own workers expense. And all of the sudden we're suppose to heed the words of a CEO like he was a god.

[Luli Pop]

anglosaxons trash is tiring me!

they come here to talk about morality... regarding copywright!
WTF?????

remember the US embassy doing industrial spy in Germany a few years ago! major unresolved diplomatic affaire.

kidnapping scientists in Germany and Russia.

stealing Lucs Montagner discovering on HIV.

even Taylorism is a copy of production chain system of Manufactures Royales de France.

German internal combustion motors where copied enterely.

Chinese do copy, it's a fact, but compared to the US... come on!!!

learn history!

[dumbfword]

^ what happen to train talk and not false allegations.

[snapdragon]

Originally Posted by Luli Pop

anglosaxons trash is tiring me!

they come here to talk about morality... regarding copywright!
WTF?????

remember the US embassy doing industrial spy in Germany a few years ago! major unresolved diplomatic affaire.

kidnapping scientists in Germany and Russia.

stealing Lucs Montagner discovering on HIV.

even Taylorism is a copy of production chain system of Manufactures Royales de France.

German internal combustion motors where copied enterely.

Chinese do copy, it's a fact, but compared to the US... come on!!!

learn history!

+1

[foxmulder]

Originally Posted by get400

Yes it is. In China, u can get not just fake watches but fake motorcycles and cars!

The CEO of GE said that the Chinese Government does not want GE to succeed in China. Other countries are much more honest, friendly and reasonable with foreign investors, ie, they dont try to rip them off.

So, this is why China has the biggest foreign direct investment for last two decade. Now, I got it. People like being riped off

[fragel]

Originally Posted by Dase

^ regarding GE you might be right, but to imply that China is NOT a country with one of the worst copyright records couldn't be further from the truth. This is also partly a cultural thing as copycating is seen as a form of flattery in China. Do you really want to dispute that? While the situation is slowly advancing, it's still true that many technology-driven companies are making bad experiences regarding the protection of intellectual property.

I don't mind people discussing specific cases, for example, the topic in this thread. but as you can see, many examples some people use to back up their stereotypes actually work against their claims, and I just pointed out the failure of that GE example from his thread. so try to be a little more specific 'cause I am not sure what you are talking about by saying 'many companies', and more appropriately, stay on topic

[33Hz]

Originally Posted by foxmulder

So, this is why China has the biggest foreign direct investment for last two decade. Now, I got it. People like being riped off

Directors of western companies have their exit strategies and don't care what happens when they are laughing their way to the bank.

[hmmwv]

I think we should stop all those OT stuff right now, let's continue discuss the CRH380, or more importantly, CRH420.

[get400]

Originally Posted by Bandit

You guys stole from each other like crazy in the 1800s.

what about today?



^ what they do with cars, they do with trains too

http://oursurprisingworld.com/the-ch...py-everything/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...Auto-2009.html

[k.k.jetcar]

get400, that white "beautiful day 300" is not a copy of the Mercedes, it's an all Chinese design using digested technology- didn't you know?

[foxmulder]

Originally Posted by get400

^ what they do with cars, they do with trains too

Explain one thing: Why are Siemens, Bombardier and Kawasaki still doing business in China?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by K_

I don't think they run "canadian" high speed trains in China. The Bombardier Group might be nominally Canadian, but Bombardier Transportation is headquartered in Berlin, and is really more a European company. The Bombardier "Zefiro" family's pedigree is mostly Swedish but the trains were actually completely build in China...

They might not run Canadian high speed trains in China, but they certainly run Canadian trains there. Those trains on that new route to Tibet are Canadian as are the new Beijing subway trains. You realize that it's the Canadian government, Canadian provincial officials, and Canadian financial groups that push/lobby/pressure to get Bombardier these contracts? They do it to advance Canadian industrial interests, not German.

Bombardier Transportation may be based in Berlin, but it's still a Canadian firm. After purchasing a big European competitor, Bombardier chose Berlin as it constituted the biggest part of its rail holdings. This Berlin division still reports to Montreal and there are large scale rail operations all over Canada.

It's a wholly owned division with global operations. Bombardier is free to move the HQ to where ever on the planet it chooses to in the future. If Boeing can move from Seattle to Chicago, and HSBC from Hong Kong to London, a corporate division can surely move from Berlin to the Montreal base of its parent, relegating Berlin to a European HQ.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by foxmulder

Explain one thing: Why are Siemens, Bombardier and Kawasaki still doing business in China?

It's corporate suicide not to. China will be the most important market in the world.

Companies have 2 choices. They can choose to do business with China, get a piece of the pie, and inevitably lose some trade secrets to Chinese firms. The other option is to stay out of China, lose global market share, and end up having to compete with these Chinese firms that will get the technology any way.

It's a contentious issue here in America, but firms realize that China will become players whether we choose to engage them or not. It's better to form joint ventures with them and secure some of our global position.

It's not just trains where Bombardier chose to engage the Chinese, but in airplanes too. Bombardier is even contemplating final assembly of one of its new airliners to be in China, not Canada. Competition is cut throat, and they realize they have to do whatever it takes to maintain or grow market share.

[Dase]

@ foxmulder: it's sheer market size. Simple as that.

@ Luli Pop: try to argue without using relativisms. Plus, try to build sentences and not just spit some fould words into the thread showing your defensiveness.

@ fragel: CEO's of different german companies, e.g. BMW, have repeatedly reported problems with their Chinese partners, who sometimes use the same machines that are used for the originals to create additional non-licensed parts. That's a common practice btw: lots of the fake consumer goods like sunglasses are created in the same fabric as the originals. Another example: Innotrans in Berlin, world's largest transportation fair. Chinese visitors fotographing all small details of every train, crawling underneath, etc. much to the dislike of exhibitors. Another one is the new Maglev-Train that looks eaxactly like it's german counterpart.

I am not so naive to claim there will ever be a world without plagiarism, nor that western companies never did or do that. The point is however the sheer chuzpe that chinese companies are showing, totally disregarding the character of design and technology as intellectual properties. Just compare the size of China as aproduction market with the amount of innovative, independent products coming from there. China should definitely aim for more, and the protection of intellectual property should be a first step into that direction - it just forces companies to be creative.

That being said, the CRH380 is definitely not such a case, it's just clever buying politics by the chinese.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by get400

what about today?



^ what they do with cars, they do with trains too

http://oursurprisingworld.com/the-ch...py-everything/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...Auto-2009.html

Look at military weapons. You're still stealing Chinese ideas and concepts hundreds of years old. Before China you guys were chucking spears and shooting arrows at one another for thousands of years. You even stole the idea for the space shuttle from Tsien Hsue-shen, one of the founders of the US Jet Propulsion Laboratory. An interview of the German rocket scientists behind the V-2 even said they used his ideas in their rocket program.

You guys had a 300 year head start in stealing when you colonized the world and slapped your names on other countries' inventions. Don't worry, China moves faster than you. Soon you'll be stealing Chinese innovation again.