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Old February 22nd, 2013, 05:04 PM   #1421
makita09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
In German speaking Countries ICE stands for Intercity-Express which is meant as Hgh Speed Trains...
Thanks. I didn't know that.

The ICE1 and 2 barely get above 250km/h as they are not distributed traction, the gradients on German HSRs are killer, and the ICX will maintain service speeds with a lower max speed. Seems entirely sensible to me.

The ICE3s will not be replaced or reduced in speed. Indeed, further units will be purchased.

I was responding to your hyperbolic criticisms of DB, which were invalid in your own terms.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 07:05 PM   #1422
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Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
Run the trains at maximum speeds during off-peak hours. The electricity prices should be about 1/3 to 1/2 of peak hour prices. .
Based on what we know I suspect that graph takes off higher as you get over 300 to 310 and beyond.
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 08:07 PM   #1423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post

1 -
Thanks. I didn't know that.

The ICE1 and 2 barely get above 250km/h as they are not distributed traction, the gradients on German HSRs are killer, and the ICX will maintain service speeds with a lower max speed. Seems entirely sensible to me.

The ICE3s will not be replaced or reduced in speed. Indeed, further units will be purchased.

I was responding to your hyperbolic criticisms of DB, which were invalid in your own terms.
Had you known you should not have written this post:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1385


Prior to you famous post I had merely written than the German are replacing their HST with the ICx slower ones

Indeed the IC1 and IC2 have a top speed of 280 km/h. ICE1 has a slow acceleration when is made of two locos and 14 carriagies, but if you reduce the train to 2 locos and 8 carriages, therefore reducing the weight of the of more tha 400 tons, it will have an acceleration similar to that TGV Duplex, which incidentally has thw power concentrated on the two locos, just like the TGVs.

Futhermore the ICE1 carriages are extremely heavy.

Incidentally, the TGV which have concentrated power on locos, have exceeded the 500km/h mark as early as 1991 with a TGV of reduced formation and made of only 2 locos and 3 carriages., and guess what? The power was concentrated only on the two locos, not distrbuted between locos ands carriages.

Indeed on long consists (for instance Eurostar TMST BR class 390) you can put the power on the two locos (top and tail) and also add extra power distributed on the carriages, by simply motorizing some car bogies.

The same SNCF has also tought of making some new Jumbo Duplex , 400m long, with two locos at the both ends of the train, and 18 carriages with some extra power mounted on the bogies supporting them. In this case you could have a train which is about 70 tons lighter that 2 TGV Duplex and could carry 150 more pax than 2 standard coupled TGV Duplex.


I am suprised that an alleged expert such yourself has not yet figured out these elementary things, or discovered that the German ICE1 /IC2 are indeed high speed trains, which will be replaced by 230 and 249 km/h ICX trains, which will also be HSTs.

Therefore in the future there will be a reduction on the top speeds on most of the German HSTs from todays 280/250 to 230 /249.

Incidentally, here below you will find the link containing the German Railway Map. The lines are colour coded and, unless you are totally colour blind, you will notice that there are only two short lines where the 300km/h runs are permitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ICEtracks.png

Last edited by joseph1951; February 22nd, 2013 at 08:20 PM.
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Old February 23rd, 2013, 11:49 AM   #1424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Had you known you should not have written this post:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1385


Prior to you famous post I had merely written than the German are replacing their HST with the ICx slower ones
Oh for God's sakes, you were making general statements that were clearly untrue about DB's general position on high speed. If you care to correct your own post as much you care to try and correct mine then you would return to your original point and edit out the hyperbole. My only point was that you didn't have one.

Quote:
Indeed the IC1 and IC2 have a top speed of 280 km/h. ICE1 has a slow acceleration when is made of two locos and 14 carriagies, but if you reduce the train to 2 locos and 8 carriages, therefore reducing the weight of the of more tha 400 tons, it will have an acceleration similar to that TGV Duplex, which incidentally has thw power concentrated on the two locos, just like the TGVs.
Actually they don't, TGVs have powered axles in the passenger cars next to each loco so they have better tractive effort than the ICE1/2.

According to my records ICE1 has 11.5kW/ton, and even the lowest powered TGV has 16.75kW/ton, a TGV Duplex 23.15kW/ton.

Quote:
Futhermore the ICE1 carriages are extremely heavy.

Incidentally, the TGV which have concentrated power on locos, have exceeded the 500km/h mark as early as 1991 with a TGV of reduced formation and made of only 2 locos and 3 carriages., and guess what? The power was concentrated only on the two locos, not distrbuted between locos ands carriages.
Apart from being slightly wrong, what is your point?

Quote:
Indeed on long consists (for instance Eurostar TMST BR class 390) you can put the power on the two locos (top and tail) and also add extra power distributed on the carriages, by simply motorizing some car bogies.
Its BR class 373, class 390 is Alstom Pendolino.

The morphology of a Eurostar set is the same as a TGV. Eurostars have more power by having a more powerful traction package, not by having extra powered carriages.

Quote:
The same SNCF has also tought of making some new Jumbo Duplex , 400m long, with two locos at the both ends of the train, and 18 carriages with some extra power mounted on the bogies supporting them. In this case you could have a train which is about 70 tons lighter that 2 TGV Duplex and could carry 150 more pax than 2 standard coupled TGV Duplex.
Yes, by adding power to the end bogies of each half-set as these bogies are not jacob's bogies. I am aware of this development, which has been proposed many years ago but doesn't seem to be occurring.

Quote:
I am suprised that an alleged expert such yourself has not yet figured out these elementary things, or discovered that the German ICE1 /IC2 are indeed high speed trains, which will be replaced by 230 and 249 km/h ICX trains, which will also be HSTs.

Therefore in the future there will be a reduction on the top speeds on most of the German HSTs from todays 280/250 to 230 /249.

Incidentally, here below you will find the link containing the German Railway Map. The lines are colour coded and, unless you are totally colour blind, you will notice that there are only two short lines where the 300km/h runs are permitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ICEtracks.png

You havent addressed my point at all - the point to point timings will not be reduced with the new trains, except in a few circumstances. All I want to know is why the tabloid dramatics directed at the managers at DB?
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Old February 23rd, 2013, 02:20 PM   #1425
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
In Japan, Chuo Shinkansen is under construction. What they plan is top speed 505 km/h, and for the 286 km distance Tokyo-Nagoya, they hope 40 minute trip time. Meaning 429 km/h average. Still far slower than nearsonic turbofan jets, and comparable to turbopropeller planes.
This comparison is off since the 40 minutes is starting from Shinagawa station from a stand still to Nagoya station at complete stop.
That is the same as a commercial plane closing it's doors at the airport to opening it's doors at their destination including the taxing to the actual runway to landing and parking the plane at the terminal.
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Old February 23rd, 2013, 03:51 PM   #1426
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Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
I guess the only way for a train to feasibly run at 320+ km/h during normal operation is to have a short designed lifespan--you can easily replace the trainsets as they wear out.

The only issue of wear and tear would therefore lie with the rails and wires. Those are stationary, and will degrade much faster.
There are currently two stretches in France with operational speed of 320 km/h (Paris-Strasbourg and Mulhouse-Dijon) and in Spain Barcelona-Madrid goes as high as 310 km/h. Maximum designed operational speed for those lines (and several others recently built or under construction) is 350 km/h. Haven't heard anything about drastically increased wear and tear. Of course 310 and 320 is not significantly above 300 - it could very well be that 350 makes a big difference. Those kind of things aren't always linear.
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Old February 24th, 2013, 11:21 AM   #1427
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
In Japan, Chuo Shinkansen is under construction. What they plan is top speed 505 km/h, and for the 286 km distance Tokyo-Nagoya, they hope 40 minute trip time. Meaning 429 km/h average.
So they have green lit and approved and funded this project?

I thought it was in perpetual development and research only.

It would be great if China could afford and approve another CRH upgrade, this a MAGLEV line or two. One Haerbin-Hong Kong, another Kunming-Shanghai. They just might do that in 10 or 20 years.
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Old February 24th, 2013, 11:55 AM   #1428
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Some people seem to have forgotten about what the Koreans are also doing:

The HEMU-430X (previously 400X) has a planned top speed of 430 km/h and a planned operational speed of 370 km/h



Last edited by TheZoolooMaster; February 26th, 2013 at 07:27 PM.
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Old February 24th, 2013, 01:57 PM   #1429
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Originally Posted by China Hand View Post

It would be great if China could afford and approve another CRH upgrade, this a MAGLEV line or two. One Haerbin-Hong Kong, another Kunming-Shanghai. They just might do that in 10 or 20 years.
I'm guessing if China were to build high speed maglev lines, the first one would be between Beijing and Shanghai, the moment the existing line runs out of space for more trains/passengers
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Old February 24th, 2013, 01:59 PM   #1430
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Originally Posted by TheZoolooMaster View Post
Some people seem to have forgotten about what the Koreans are also doing:

The HEMU-430X (previously 400X) has a planned top speed of 430 km/h and a planned operational speed of 370 km/h


There's a difference between plans and real life... we'll see what happens once they release that thing into the wild and actually run it on their network at 370 km/h for over a year.
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Old February 24th, 2013, 11:05 PM   #1431
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
I'm guessing if China were to build high speed maglev lines, the first one would be between Beijing and Shanghai, the moment the existing line runs out of space for more trains/passengers
The Korean first HST was an 18 passenger car version of the TGV Reseau and so far this train is the few single deck "long trains" derived from the TGV platform .This train is 388 metres long and carries 935 passengers.

It has two locomotives + 18 carriages, and like the TGV SudEst and the TGV Eurostar TMST (BR Class 373) on top of the locos it also has 2 passenger cars powered.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_Train_Express

Subsequently, with the HS350x and the KTX-II, the Koreans copied very badly the French technology and badly retrofitted it in these two "new Korean HSTs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSR-350x

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KTX-II

The latest Korean HST, the HEMU -400X seems a mixture of French-and Japanese design,and probably a mixture of various technologies coming from the 4 corners of the World..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEMU-400X

I suspect that the indigenous Korean High Speed Rail technologies is not yet fully mature to venture in the in teh filed of Very High Speed Train (360-400 km/h)

Above 360-420 km/h there is a tremendous surge in energy consumption, and in wear of the rolling stock and infrastucture which doesnt' ' make it yet justifiable to run convetional trains at commercial top speed of 360~400 km/h, or more

Even a maglev, which is a train that has no friction with the rail or the catenary, when running at 500 km/h has an energy requirments which is 3,5 greater than that of a Japanese N700 running at 270km/h...........
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Old February 25th, 2013, 02:17 AM   #1432
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Are you sure you responded to the right post?
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Old February 25th, 2013, 04:00 AM   #1433
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That's like his thing, jumps from subject to subject It looks like he is making a point but he just waters down the topic Interesting fellow.
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Old February 25th, 2013, 05:36 AM   #1434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post


Are you sure you responded to the right post?
Yes! I di try to answer your post.


But since you , apparently, did not understang what I wrote ,let me put it in a different way, perhaps less diplomatic but more clear :

what the Korean are doing is just rubbish.

They tried over and over again to retrofit, and improve on the KTX-I they have imported from France, and this just to say: we got and indigenous high speed train which is the faster in the world, and can run at 400km/h on commerial revenue.

But they can't build it, yet . Perhaps in 30 years......

If If they want at all cost to have a train that can be run, pretty soon, at 360 - 400 km/h on commercial services they will have to buy a train built either by the Japanese, or the French, or the German, or the Canadian (Bombardier).


However, if with your post you were trying to say: Even the Korean are trying to run their own made HST at 400 km/h, so why we don't do the same or better, right now"?.

Forget it. It wont' happen very soon.

Have you got it, now?
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Old February 25th, 2013, 08:17 AM   #1435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Yes! I di try to answer your post.


But since you , apparently, did not understang what I wrote ,let me put it in a different way, perhaps less diplomatic but more clear :

what the Korean are doing is just rubbish.

They tried over and over again to retrofit, and improve on the KTX-I they have imported from France, and this just to say: we got and indigenous high speed train which is the faster in the world, and can run at 400km/h on commerial revenue.

But they can't build it, yet . Perhaps in 30 years......

If If they want at all cost to have a train that can be run, pretty soon, at 360 - 400 km/h on commercial services they will have to buy a train built either by the Japanese, or the French, or the German, or the Canadian (Bombardier).


However, if with your post you were trying to say: Even the Korean are trying to run their own made HST at 400 km/h, so why we don't do the same or better, right now"?.

Forget it. It wont' happen very soon.

Have you got it, now?
I'm pretty it was you who got everything confused, it was TheZoolooMaster who brought up the HEMU-430X, Silly_Walks was the one pointed out that the Korean is unlikely to be able to run the train at that speed commercially.
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Old February 25th, 2013, 12:05 PM   #1436
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CRH380A CIT at Nanjing South HSR Depot



























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Old February 25th, 2013, 03:10 PM   #1437
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
I'm guessing if China were to build high speed maglev lines, the first one would be between Beijing and Shanghai, the moment the existing line runs out of space for more trains/passengers
What would travel times be for 500 kph top speed at 440 kph avg?
About 3 hours?
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Old February 25th, 2013, 04:02 PM   #1438
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Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
What would travel times be for 500 kph top speed at 440 kph avg?
About 3 hours?
I think about that. And with central underground terminals in both cities, air travel would probably be reduced to 10-20% marketshare on that route.
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Old February 28th, 2013, 04:42 AM   #1439
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Feb-27 First generation HSR "China Star" drives to China Railway Museum (Beijing)



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Old February 28th, 2013, 06:20 AM   #1440
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Feb-27 First generation HSR "China Star" drives to China Railway Museum (Beijing)
Continuation of this project is needed.
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