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Old January 13th, 2014, 11:42 AM   #1741
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But that's missing my point - a rolling testbed is hugely different to the real world. The fact that another trainset went much faster than its much lower operating speed has no logical application when talking about the CIT 500. Assuming it went 575 (because let's be serious - they'd be singing from the rooftops if it broke 600) on a rolling testbed, it'd probably max out at a much lower speed in real life. On the testbed it's just a case of spinning the wheels as fast as it can - there isn't much resistance against the motors. Outside it has a shitton of force to fight against. Do the forumers here not remember the discussions that were had about the difference between 300 and 380 km/h running? The energy requirement at 380 is double that at 300. That rule applies to some astonishing totals at the highest speeds.
Take a look at all the modifications that were required to go for the French record, and the heavy maintenance that was required after.
Expecting that set to run at 600 is pretty loopy, really.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 05:57 PM   #1742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
But that's missing my point - a rolling testbed is hugely different to the real world. The fact that another trainset went much faster than its much lower operating speed has no logical application when talking about the CIT 500. Assuming it went 575 (because let's be serious - they'd be singing from the rooftops if it broke 600) on a rolling testbed, it'd probably max out at a much lower speed in real life. On the testbed it's just a case of spinning the wheels as fast as it can - there isn't much resistance against the motors. Outside it has a shitton of force to fight against. Do the forumers here not remember the discussions that were had about the difference between 300 and 380 km/h running? The energy requirement at 380 is double that at 300. That rule applies to some astonishing totals at the highest speeds.
Take a look at all the modifications that were required to go for the French record, and the heavy maintenance that was required after.
Expecting that set to run at 600 is pretty loopy, really.
I think you are missing the point. Everyone is aware that in a bench there is no air resistance. What they are testing on the bench is bogie/rail interaction, resonance, suspension, vibration, noise and especially hunting oscillation. This may be the hardest aspect of the designing a high speed train, anyway.

Aerodynamic tests are done in simulations and wind tunnels and in real test runs.

You can also easily determine whether CIT500 has enough power or not to cope with air resistance at 600km/h. I am sure engineers know how much power is needed.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 05:58 PM   #1743
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By the way, if we see CIT500 going 600km/h, it won't be the first time it would have run at that speed for sure.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 06:45 PM   #1744
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I understand your point, that's why I said they broke 600 a year and half ago and are not idling. I'd imagine if they want to have any serious chance of breaking the record they should be testing at 650 or 670 by now. Test stand is just one part of the overall testing process, but it's a good indication of progress and intend. It's clear that they are aiming for very high speed, and made pretty good progress on that. They will have to run all sorts of other tests before the trainset is ready for its speed record run.

Also the whole point of design this very high speed demonstrator is to hit speed higher significantly higher than anything else China can run. If an unmodified CRH380A can run at 486km/h then it's safe to assume a modified one should already be able to run at speed excess of 500km/h. To build a dedicated train means it's aiming for something much higher, so I'm pretty confident that they plan to run it at 600km/h. Of course the whole point is to explore technologies that enables such run, and having them cascading down to more practical trains to make them safer and more efficient. We most likely won't see conventional trains to run at that kind of speed commercially, ever.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 09:13 PM   #1745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
I think you are missing the point. Everyone is aware that in a bench there is no air resistance. What they are testing on the bench is bogie/rail interaction, resonance, suspension, vibration, noise and especially hunting oscillation. This may be the hardest aspect of the designing a high speed train, anyway.
These tests must be on each individual axle, since the test load is a roller against each wheel. With the flexibility inherent in the test bed itself, I don't see how they can accurately simulate the reaction to a continuous rail supporting all bogies in a trainset.

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You can also easily determine whether CIT500 has enough power or not to cope with air resistance at 600km/h. I am sure engineers know how much power is needed.
It's not just air resistance, there's also dynamic stability considerations. And Fanrailer posted a couple of technical papers with interesting curves of the balance between traction resistance and driving forces.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 02:07 AM   #1746
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@hmmwv
Clearly it's a matter of personal intuition at this point and my guess if as good as yours.
And of course it's highly unlikely we'll see anything running commercially at those speeds - I doubt wheel on rail will reach speeds much higher than 400 km/h at all anywhere
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Old January 15th, 2014, 12:01 AM   #1747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xinxingren View Post
These tests must be on each individual axle, since the test load is a roller against each wheel. With the flexibility inherent in the test bed itself, I don't see how they can accurately simulate the reaction to a continuous rail supporting all bogies in a trainset.



It's not just air resistance, there's also dynamic stability considerations. And Fanrailer posted a couple of technical papers with interesting curves of the balance between traction resistance and driving forces.

That's exactly what they test on the bench. Don't let the seemingly simple word "bench" trick you. It is quite an equipment where whole car sits on not just single bogie.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 02:04 AM   #1748
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Low speed maglev, not really HSR but it's a trainset.

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Old January 15th, 2014, 07:40 AM   #1749
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this train will be used in Changsha airport line which will start construction this year.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 07:42 AM   #1750
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Quote:
China to produce hybrid high-speed trains

(Xinhua) 20:14, January 14, 2014

CHANGCHUN, Jan. 14 -- China CNR Corporation Limited (CNR), one of the country's biggest train makers, announced on Tuesday that it will roll a prototype of hybrid high-speed train off the production line in September 2015.

Changchun Railway Vehicle Co., Ltd (CRC) of CNR will integrate two or three power sources -- electricity, battery pack or diesel engine -- into the trains, according to CNR.

The power sources will form two-in-one or three-in-one power packs depending on operation and rail conditions.

The design speed of the trains will be 160 km per hour, said CNR.

The trains are expected to run on both trunk and branch railways.

They will be widely used compared with traditional trains because of their adaptability to travel on both electric and non-electric railways.

... ...
link
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Old January 15th, 2014, 09:01 AM   #1751
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That's interesting, it will be mostly a electric train with a diesel generator, but different from the traditional diesel-electric locos as it'll be able to run on electricity alone by rising pantograph. The battery is recharged by regenerative braking, am I correct to assume EMUs today have that too, but the power is fed back into the grid?
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Old January 15th, 2014, 09:05 PM   #1752
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Interesting development, but 160 km/h is not a high-speed train.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 11:49 PM   #1753
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160km/hr is higher speed than most locos available on trunk and branch railways.
These will be ideal for all those standard lines upgraded to 160 where
they don't yet have locos that can do 160, and where they need to pull trains
out from under the wires.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 11:52 PM   #1754
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I think the answer is already "yes" but are most railway lines in still China non-electrified?
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Old January 16th, 2014, 12:29 AM   #1755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xinxingren View Post
160km/hr is higher speed than most locos available on trunk and branch railways.
These will be ideal for all those standard lines upgraded to 160 where
they don't yet have locos that can do 160, and where they need to pull trains
out from under the wires.
Are we talking of passenger locomotives or freight? For passenger locos 160km/h was a standard from as early as 1960's or so. They usually didn't go at that speed due to limitations of track but if we're talking of locomotives only 160km/h is no big news for the past 50 years. I'm talking not just Western Europe but USSR too. Diesel Locomotives like TEP60 were capable of 160km/h since 1960.

I think the main point that they wanted to make here is that those will be hybrid locomotives.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 07:08 PM   #1756
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I think they meant to say it's a MU not actual HSR, as in China they kind of like to interchange the two concepts. In this case it'll be a HMU (Hybrid Multiple Unit).
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Old January 20th, 2014, 08:14 AM   #1757
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it looks really great. i am surprised.
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Old February 2nd, 2014, 07:19 AM   #1758
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CRH380CL by Luo Chunxiao

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Old February 2nd, 2014, 08:31 AM   #1759
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Cute little angel wings for lights...

*No.

Ugly, buffalo wings are a better description.
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Old February 2nd, 2014, 09:48 AM   #1760
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Do the Velaro and Zefiro based trains have any relation to each other? They look really similar to each other...CRH3, 380B, 380C and 380D.
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