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Old October 14th, 2010, 09:29 PM   #161
33Hz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
So, this is why China has the biggest foreign direct investment for last two decade. Now, I got it. People like being riped off
Directors of western companies have their exit strategies and don't care what happens when they are laughing their way to the bank.
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Old October 14th, 2010, 11:43 PM   #162
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I think we should stop all those OT stuff right now, let's continue discuss the CRH380, or more importantly, CRH420.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 07:04 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit View Post
You guys stole from each other like crazy in the 1800s.
what about today?



^ what they do with cars, they do with trains too

http://oursurprisingworld.com/the-ch...py-everything/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...Auto-2009.html
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Old October 15th, 2010, 07:41 AM   #164
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get400, that white "beautiful day 300" is not a copy of the Mercedes, it's an all Chinese design using digested technology- didn't you know?
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Old October 15th, 2010, 09:07 AM   #165
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Quote:
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^ what they do with cars, they do with trains too
Explain one thing: Why are Siemens, Bombardier and Kawasaki still doing business in China?
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Old October 15th, 2010, 10:05 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I don't think they run "canadian" high speed trains in China. The Bombardier Group might be nominally Canadian, but Bombardier Transportation is headquartered in Berlin, and is really more a European company. The Bombardier "Zefiro" family's pedigree is mostly Swedish but the trains were actually completely build in China...
They might not run Canadian high speed trains in China, but they certainly run Canadian trains there. Those trains on that new route to Tibet are Canadian as are the new Beijing subway trains. You realize that it's the Canadian government, Canadian provincial officials, and Canadian financial groups that push/lobby/pressure to get Bombardier these contracts? They do it to advance Canadian industrial interests, not German.

Bombardier Transportation may be based in Berlin, but it's still a Canadian firm. After purchasing a big European competitor, Bombardier chose Berlin as it constituted the biggest part of its rail holdings. This Berlin division still reports to Montreal and there are large scale rail operations all over Canada.

It's a wholly owned division with global operations. Bombardier is free to move the HQ to where ever on the planet it chooses to in the future. If Boeing can move from Seattle to Chicago, and HSBC from Hong Kong to London, a corporate division can surely move from Berlin to the Montreal base of its parent, relegating Berlin to a European HQ.
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Last edited by isaidso; October 15th, 2010 at 10:39 AM.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 10:46 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Explain one thing: Why are Siemens, Bombardier and Kawasaki still doing business in China?
It's corporate suicide not to. China will be the most important market in the world.

Companies have 2 choices. They can choose to do business with China, get a piece of the pie, and inevitably lose some trade secrets to Chinese firms. The other option is to stay out of China, lose global market share, and end up having to compete with these Chinese firms that will get the technology any way.

It's a contentious issue here in America, but firms realize that China will become players whether we choose to engage them or not. It's better to form joint ventures with them and secure some of our global position.

It's not just trains where Bombardier chose to engage the Chinese, but in airplanes too. Bombardier is even contemplating final assembly of one of its new airliners to be in China, not Canada. Competition is cut throat, and they realize they have to do whatever it takes to maintain or grow market share.
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Last edited by isaidso; October 15th, 2010 at 10:52 AM.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 10:48 AM   #168
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@ foxmulder: it's sheer market size. Simple as that.

@ Luli Pop: try to argue without using relativisms. Plus, try to build sentences and not just spit some fould words into the thread showing your defensiveness.

@ fragel: CEO's of different german companies, e.g. BMW, have repeatedly reported problems with their Chinese partners, who sometimes use the same machines that are used for the originals to create additional non-licensed parts. That's a common practice btw: lots of the fake consumer goods like sunglasses are created in the same fabric as the originals. Another example: Innotrans in Berlin, world's largest transportation fair. Chinese visitors fotographing all small details of every train, crawling underneath, etc. much to the dislike of exhibitors. Another one is the new Maglev-Train that looks eaxactly like it's german counterpart.

I am not so naive to claim there will ever be a world without plagiarism, nor that western companies never did or do that. The point is however the sheer chuzpe that chinese companies are showing, totally disregarding the character of design and technology as intellectual properties. Just compare the size of China as aproduction market with the amount of innovative, independent products coming from there. China should definitely aim for more, and the protection of intellectual property should be a first step into that direction - it just forces companies to be creative.

That being said, the CRH380 is definitely not such a case, it's just clever buying politics by the chinese.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 11:33 AM   #169
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Quote:
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Look at military weapons. You're still stealing Chinese ideas and concepts hundreds of years old. Before China you guys were chucking spears and shooting arrows at one another for thousands of years. You even stole the idea for the space shuttle from Tsien Hsue-shen, one of the founders of the US Jet Propulsion Laboratory. An interview of the German rocket scientists behind the V-2 even said they used his ideas in their rocket program.

You guys had a 300 year head start in stealing when you colonized the world and slapped your names on other countries' inventions. Don't worry, China moves faster than you. Soon you'll be stealing Chinese innovation again.

Last edited by Bandit; October 15th, 2010 at 11:39 AM.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 01:06 PM   #170
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I didn't know the Germans had a space shuttle!!
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Old October 15th, 2010, 01:08 PM   #171
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Top ten rolling stock manufacturers by turnover


the top three non-Chinese companies and their bussiness in China

Bombardier Transportation in China

Bombardier Transportation's cooperation with China dates back to 1954 and, since then,
they have been actively involved in China's development of urban mass transit and advanced
railway networks. they are committed to transferring its world-class technology and advanced
management philosophy to China.

they currently have three joint ventures and seven Wholly Foreign Owned Enterprises (WFOE) in China.

Bombardier Sifang (Qingdao) Transportation Ltd. (BST) is a Sino-Canadian joint venture
established in 1998 through Bombardier Inc. and CSR Sifang Locomotive and Rolling
Stock Co. Ltd. its Qingdao facility is mainly engaged in the design and manufacture
of railway passenger cars and rolling stock.
Changchun Bombardier Railway Vehicles Co. Ltd. (CBRC) was established in 1997 by
Bombardier Inc. and CNR Changchun Railway Vehicle Co. Ltd. (CRC). Changchun
facility produces metro cars.
Bombardier CPC Propulsion System Co. Ltd. (BCP) is owned equally by Bombardier Inc.
and Changzhou Railcar Propulsion Engineering R&D Center (CPC). its Changzhou
facility is dedicated to the production, marketing, and maintenance of
propulsion equipment for rail vehicles.

Including its joint ventures and WFOEs, Bombardier Transportation currently employs
more than 3,500 people in China. It has offices located in Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Hong Kong.

Alstom Transport in China

Since its first cooperation with China in 1950s, Alstom has been aiming to be
the best partner of China’s rail infrastructure market. In mainline market,
Alstom, together with its local partners - Changchun Railway Vehicle Co., Ltd.
and Datong Electric Locomotive Co., Ltd., has won a number of key contracts of
electric locomotives from China’s Ministry of Railway (MoR). On top of these,
Alstom also won its first infrastructure contract in China for the electrification
of the Shi-Tai high-speed line from MoR. In metro market, Alstom has participated
in metro network construction in such cities as Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong
and Nanjing. In 2010, Alstom signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU)
with CNR Corporation Ltd., (“CNR”) and Shanghai Electric Group Co., Ltd.,
(“SEC”) - to form a strategic partnership and jointly develop new markets for mass transit products.

Siemens Transportation Systems in China

Siemens’ business relationships with China were established more than one century
ago. Since then Siemens has always been an integral part of Chinese economy with
the objective to enhance the comfort and quality of the life of the Chinese people.
Due to the enormous fast economic growth in China, the complete spectrum of its life
is experiencing rapid development. The need to travel safely, quickly and punctually
requires efficient transportation systems, which calls for more investment as theyll as
modern technology know-how. With its wide range of portfolio as theyll as its leading
technical expertise, Siemens Transportation Systems sees itself as the reliable and
long-term partner to accomplish these tasks.

Siemens Ltd., China has established more than 60 regional offices and over 70
operating companies in China and thus is close to the customer. As part of the China
wide set-up, TS China has dedicated representatives in 7 offices including Beijing,
Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Xi’an Zhuzhou and Nanjing, with Beijing as the
head office. Together with its local partners, TS China has established three joint
ventures in Xi’an, Zhuzhou and Nanjing, where the singalling and control systems, key
components for locomotives, and electrification components are manufactured for the
Chinese and selected export markets.

During the past ten years, TS China successfully contributed to the transportation
infrastructure development and modernization throughout China including mass transit
projects in Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen and Nanjing, Beijing and Dalian as theyll
as main line projects such as the world’s longest railway electrification from Harbin in
Heilongjiang province to Dalian in Liaoning province, signalling, AC locomotives and
300km/h high-speed trains.

Last edited by greenlion; October 15th, 2010 at 01:25 PM.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 03:34 PM   #172
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Quote:
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I didn't know the Germans had a space shuttle!!
Never heard of the Sänger space programme? Too bad it never got realised due to lack of fund.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 05:39 PM   #173
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Does anyone know if any CRH5 technology was adapted on the new CRH380 trains?
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Old October 15th, 2010, 06:32 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by YelloPerilo View Post
Never heard of the Sänger space programme? Too bad it never got realised due to lack of fund.
honestly, i seriously do believe it had other reasons, and those sit Washington, London and Paris
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Old October 15th, 2010, 06:48 PM   #175
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honestly, i seriously do believe it had other reasons, and those sit Washington, London and Paris
How dare we in Germany criticises our overlord (USofA) and our dear neighbours, friends and allies (F/GB).
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Old October 15th, 2010, 07:50 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Dase View Post

@ foxmulder: it's sheer market size. Simple as that.
No, it's not as simple as that. The original point being debated was whether the fastest train in commercial service in the world (hello, the topic of this thread), the CRH380A from Sifang, involves intellectual property infringement.

Some people's point has been that, if it did, foreign companies would have specifically raised the legal issues. But they haven't.

The truth is that CRH380A is based on CRH2, which is based on technology contractually transferred from Kawasaki. Neither in the case of the predecessor - CRH2 - nor in the design and test work for the CRH380A was there any infringement of intellectual property. The former because Kawasaki contractually agreed to transfer all the technology involved in E2, the latter because the design work for CRH380A was done entirely by Sifang and other Chinese institutions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dase View Post

That being said, the CRH380 is definitely not such a case, it's just clever buying politics by the chinese.
Which version of CHR380 are you referring to? The only version that is currently running commercial service, the CRH380A from Sifang, is not just clever buying politics. Clever buying politics made it possible. But a lot of design and test work was needed even after the clever buying politics.

It's like saying that today's ICBMs in the US are just the result of America's clever post-war buying politics, as they would not be possible without the forced transfer of missile technology and recruitment of scientists from Germany after WWII. In fact, the same could be said for much of US's aerospace and nuclear industry today.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 07:58 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Explain one thing: Why are Siemens, Bombardier and Kawasaki still doing business in China?
Because a real Merc is a real Merc, lots of rich people in China know what a genuine Merc is and do buy them.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 08:58 PM   #178
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Quote:
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Because a real Merc is a real Merc, lots of rich people in China know what a genuine Merc is and do buy them.
So you have no clue...
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Old October 15th, 2010, 09:01 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
No, it's not as simple as that. The original point being debated was whether the fastest train in commercial service in the world (hello, the topic of this thread), the CRH380A from Sifang, involves intellectual property infringement.

Some people's point has been that, if it did, foreign companies would have specifically raised the legal issues. But they haven't.

The truth is that CRH380A is based on CRH2, which is based on technology contractually transferred from Kawasaki. Neither in the case of the predecessor - CRH2 - nor in the design and test work for the CRH380A was there any infringement of intellectual property. The former because Kawasaki contractually agreed to transfer all the technology involved in E2, the latter because the design work for CRH380A was done entirely by Sifang and other Chinese institutions.

Perfect summary.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 11:35 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
So you have no clue...
Neither one of you seems to have any clue.

Siemens is doing business in China because of its clever play: it insisted on not transferring some of the key technologies for Velaro, which greatly hampered the Chinese efforts to upgrade the designs of CRH3. Siemens is doing (rail-related) business in China because (a) it is better to have business in a country with large market than not; and (b) Siemens could actually keep some of the business because it managed to make the Chinese depend on them.

By contrast, none of the Japanese companies is doing rail-related business (except for component-sourcing: it is not clear if Hitachi is still making electric motors for some of the newest generation CRHs).

So on the one hand, it is not true that all foreign companies with relevant expertise are doing rail-related business in China, and, on the other hand, for those that are, the reason that they are is not merely market size ((a) above), but mainly because they can (i.e. (b) above).
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