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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:12 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by liverpolitan View Post
Very very odd coverage by newsnight. Here we have a city with some of the most intense deprivation of any town in England, that receives tens of millions of pounds of money for its deprived areas each year because it scores so highly on the Index of Mutiple Deprivation. And yet here also we have public funds used for an arts festival that makes no serious effort at all to really reach out to the deprived and neglected communities of Manchester and involve them or reflect their own cultural aspirations and talents.

What does the national broadcaster do? They keep entirely silent, and simply promote the festival as if they were providing free advertising. The same national broadcaster who hover around the Capital of Culture arrangements only ever running pieces that are critical. And of course, when you try to run a festival that will genuinely involve and reflect a city, that is bloody hard, and is bound to generate criticism.

I don't think the BBC did anyone any favours last night, and that the Editor of Newsnight should now be sacked. It reflected unacceptably low journalistic standards - not to mention double standards - to ignore all the criticism and simply do a puff piece for Manchester and its desire to project an image of being cultured. We know what this festival is for and about -it's about economic rather than cultural development, and yet they lack the objectivity or journalistic honesty to even look at such issues.

That said, I hope the festival can mature over the years into one that will help bring hope and light to the depressed communities who struggle to live only a few miles away from the glitz and glamour of opening nights. They are the real Mancunians, and they deserve to have a voice.

What a absolute ******* sick steaming pile of Shite. How much longer does the Manchester forum have to put up with this clown spewing his regular bitter, twisted, self obsessed rants about Manchester on our/this forum? The Manchester forum is probably on it's last legs anyway, but this idiot is hell bent on dragging this forum down to his level. Unfortunately he is succeeding and being allowed to do this while the Mods do nothing about it and him. Enough is enough.

Who wants to read his/this shit? I ******* don't, and neither do the rest of the Manchester forum members. I've finally had enough of him and his constant attacks on Manchester. Either ban him from the Manchester forum or I'm off.

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Here we have a town that is tragically scarred as well as scared by gun crime, with children killing other children, as indeed also happens in London but not in most English towns.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:17 PM   #122
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Come on children.
Calm down.

I dont really agree with what our friend from down the m62 is saying but i can see his point and he has every right to express it.

I dont see his comments as city bashing but i'm afraid some of you have seen it as such.
He is actually commenting more on society and elitism.

If you can see past the fact he is usually a bit of a troll he is actually speaking some sense and should be engaged in a debate - not barracked.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:22 PM   #123
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What a absolute ******* sick steaming pile of Shite. How much longer does the Manchester forum have to put up with this clown spewing his regular bitter, twisted, self obsessed rants about Manchester on our/this forum? The Manchester forum is probably on it's last legs anyway, but this idiot is hell bent on dragging this forum down to his level. Unfortunately he is succeeding and being allowed to do this while the Mods do nothing about it and him. Enough is enough.

Who wants to read his/this shit? I ******* don't, and neither do the rest of the Manchester forum members. I've finally had enough of him and his constant attacks on Manchester. Either ban him from the Manchester forum or I'm off.
You're out of order... if you intend to try to shut down this debate I strongly suggest you go and do your shopping and come back later.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:24 PM   #124
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What a absolute ******* sick steaming pile of Shite. How much longer does the Manchester forum have to put up with this clown spewing his regular bitter, twisted, self obsessed rants about Manchester on our/this forum? The Manchester forum is probably on it's last legs anyway, but this idiot is hell bent on dragging this forum down to his level. Unfortunately he is succeeding and being allowed to do this while the Mods do nothing about it and him. Enough is enough.

Who wants to read his/this shit? I ******* don't, and neither do the rest of the Manchester forum members. I've finally had enough of him and his constant attacks on Manchester. Either ban him from the Manchester forum or I'm off.
I've actually been into poor areas of Manchester recently (as well as nice ones) and spoken to people, and I actually do care about the issue. It's the same in Liverpool, Leeds, London - the difference here being the bizarre lack of objectivity and criticism by the national media. If you really don't care about people, then you won't be able to understand this point. Dngr8 misssed the point I made about this as well, eary on in my time here, and regarded it as an "anti-working class" thing... The opposite is the case, my argument is that regeneration that is at the expense of ordinary people is never as good as regeneration that works with them to bring out their talents.

Why not have an interesting chat about that, instead of spitting and sulking? I rarely look at this forum (so how I can be regarded as a nuisance heaven's knows - I am a very rare visitor), and if you are lacking in life, as you say, then why not have a lively debate? If you cannot discuss urban issues (and everything has to constantly be great and be defended) then your forum will get a bit boring. Open it up a bit.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:26 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by The Longford View Post
Come on children.
Calm down.

I dont really agree with what our friend from down the m62 is saying but i can see his point and he has every right to express it.

I dont see his comments as city bashing but i'm afraid some of you have seen it as such.
He is actually commenting more on society and elitism.

If you can see past the fact he is usually a bit of a troll he is actually speaking some sense and should be engaged in a debate - not barracked.
Don't patronize me Longy.

What has kids shooting each other got to do with the Manchester Internationl festival? Please.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:32 PM   #126
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Don't patronize me Longy.
I'm not singling you out jerbers!
Your all as bad as one another!

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What has kids shooting each other got to do with the Manchester Internationl festival? Please.

Quite a lot actually.
Shouldnt we be engaging ours (and that includes yours) communities in things as well and putting them on the international stage?
I'm all for the IF but not if it means attention and resources are drawn away from the outer communities which deserve more of the deal.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:33 PM   #127
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Don't patronize me Longy.

What has kids shooting each other got to do with the Manchester Internationl festival? Please.
Read the post properly. The post is not specifically about kids shooting kids, but a comment on the way that the Festival has been presented, and the rationale behind its funding... Luv is entitled to his view, and you are intelligent enough to give him an intelligent answer.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:33 PM   #128
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What has kids shooting each other got to do with the Manchester Internationl festival? Please.
You make the point perfectly. It's got nothing to do with kids shooting each other. And it should. It should.

Cultural investment is scarce and needs to be targetted where it can really help improve lives. Do you think those kids were born to shoot each other? Do you think they don't have talent and sometimes genius? I'm not saying it's all one thing or the other - you need a mix between community grass-roots arts and elite arts, but the MIF has an odd mix..............I am asking why the media, who love such angles, totally ignored it.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:39 PM   #129
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Why don't you all go to Moss side and ask the gangs if they're interested in the Manchester International Festival and how it affects them or could improve their lives? After they've laughed at you and shot you, come back and tell me if your views have changed.

Jesus.(why don't you ask him aswell)
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:43 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by liverpolitan
So you don't care ...
It's not that at all, I've just never seen you make a contribution to any thread which involves Manchester that isn't about finding as much negativity in the topic as you can and laying upon it as much derision as possible. So even when you touch on making a legitimate point it is increasingly hard to take anything you have to say seriously when you crow about bias and lack of objectivity while drowning in the hypocrisy of being guilty of it yourself.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:45 PM   #131
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Wild Side was an encore piece and it was utterly brilliant btw.

Berlin was a seminal album of the time, inspired by a seminal place at that time. Many underground artists were in Berlin in those few years, and a great deal of 70's sub-culture came from those artists, many of whom went on to become globally important artists. This album in particular became a cultural cornerstone revolving around depression, and was to many a crucial shift in the way that concept albums could be written. It is referred to as an inspiration by many.

The reason this performance is important is that Reed and his team intended to create a stage show based on the album at the time of its release, but the relative commercial failure of the album meant that the wider public never saw this performed as Reed visualised it. So now, many years later Reed has become a legend, and he has brought it to us. Personally I'm grateful, and feel very privileged to have been there.
I think it's sad that Berlin is being hyped up in this way and his most creative work is missed out but then I guess it was a product of the Velvet Underground and not Lou's own work. I can see how Berlin would work as an ensemble piece however and I'm glad it went well. Perhaps he actually talked to the audience in a more sustained way although I doubt it.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:47 PM   #132
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Poli's point a simple one, and the fact that he has made it many times does not undermine its validity one bit.

Because of this festival is in Manchester, and Manchester is the media's favourite it is being reported very favourably.

If exactly the same events were being hosted in Liverpool, a festival there would be reported more critically and with (real or imaginary) bad aspects of the city being brought into news articles about the festival.

In fact, the media has been doing this about CoC right since Liverpool won the competition. The BBC, in fact (as Poli alludes to), on their influential Today radio programme, send their reporter into a community centre full of geriatric derelicts in one of Liverpool's poorest districts to ask them what they thought of Capital of Culture. You can imagine the results.

The irony is that, although not perfect, the CoC, unlike the MIF, has striven to involve local community groups and much of its funding goes to these local organisations. Their programme, like the MIF's, will include work from outsiders as well, of course. However, the MIF is notable for its lack of a local contribution, far more than the CoC will have and yet the BBC (and other media, often working out of Manchester offices) are uncritical about the MIF whilst trying to attack ECoC for its lack of community support.

You guys don't realise just how enormously biassed the media is towards Manchester and against Liverpool. Manchester is very lucky in this respect. I find it very depressing that none of you seems to be unblinkered enough to realise this.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:48 PM   #133
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You're out of order... if you intend to try to shut down this debate I strongly suggest you go and do your shopping and come back later.
Thanks for the advice. There's nothing like being impartial is there B4mmy? Perhaps your trying to hard too please? BTW. At what point did I say I wanted this thread closed? I didn't.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:49 PM   #134
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Art is politics, and this "cultural" festival is a glorified bit of economic development work to attract visitors and jobs. The city was not forced to ignore its own people - especially the deprived communities - when desgining and setting up this festival. It chose to ignore them. It's as though there are two Manchester's: the city centre and the rest. The city leaders should be challenged on this by objective journalists - instead of programmes like Newsnight simply promoting it.
Perhaps, but newsnight review is an arts review programme. They don't review 20th Century Fox films with the provisio that while they may be watchable, because it was funded by the people who own anti-imformative propoganda merchants Fox News they're somehow less good. Or condemn the Edinburgh festival because parts of that city of deprived. The MIF isn't getting special treatment, it's getting normal arts broadcasting. Newsnight review is there to assess the artistic value of the works it reviews, not investigate their holstic morality. The BBC has shown a documentary about the folly of arts led regeneration with a large focus on Manchester, but to expect it to do so on a review programme is ridiculous.

Of course there are two Manchesters. There's the city centre, Salford Quays, Urmston, Chorlton, Didsbury, Altrincham, Cheadle, Sale, Heaton x4, Prestwich and Worsley part; and the Moss Side, Longsight, Moston, Gorton, Wythenshawe, Old Trafford, Collyhurst and Broughton part. There are two Londons as well. And two Glasgows, Edinburghs, New Yorks, Parises and Liverpools. This is something that badly needs addressing, but it is a problem far excedding the powers and scope of Manchester City Council and not one a couple of million pounds is going to make a dent in. Manchester has come to the realisation that it will only become a rich and successful city for all by recgaining its borgeiosie. Events like the MIF are a big part of that. It may be disappointing that it doesn't yet involve the whole city, but it's a long term project which will hopefully begin to as it develops.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:49 PM   #135
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I think it's sad that Berlin is being hyped up in this way and his most creative work is missed out but then I guess it was a product of the Velvet Underground and not Lou's own work. I can see how Berlin would work as an ensemble piece however and I'm glad it went well. Perhaps he actually talked to the audience in a more sustained way although I doubt it.
He never talks! At the end though he said 'Did you like it?' Of course we all went nuts.

He said once that Berlin was just another one of his albums that never sold... yet as a work of poetry alone, it's outstanding. I think anyway.

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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:53 PM   #136
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Thanks for the advice. There's nothing like being impartial is there B4mmy? Perhaps your trying to hard too please? BTW. At what point did I say I wanted this thread closed? I didn't.
I am being impartial. I have actually put myself in a position where I have become MORE impartial, so what do you mean by that. At the moment the only person I'm not pleasing is you mate. Perhaps we should have another beer soon, and you can put me straight.

Your post made it perfectly clear that you wanted a mod to shut Liverpolitan down. As far as I'm concerned that was an attempt by you to shut down the debate.

Any more questions that you would rather not pm me with?
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:54 PM   #137
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Why don't you all go to Moss side and ask the gangs if they're interested in the Manchester International Festival and how it affects them or could improve their lives? After they've laughed at you and shot you, come back and tell me if your views have changed.
Well quite. That illustrates the bone of contention here perfectly. The BBC did exactly that when it reported on Liverpool's CoC preparations. They spoke to nobody involved in organising the thing and found a group of very poor and uninformed people festering in a community centre in Toxteth and asked them about ECoC. That was it, that was the report. Breathtaking really, but this kind of thing happens again and again when anything about Liverpool is reported, whilst Manchester is hyped continuously and uncritically by the very same media organisations.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:56 PM   #138
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Awayo. So your trying to defend Neapolitan and you want us to take his and your views seriously.

When you and Neapolitan can discuss Manchester without the usual bullshit, perhaps most of the Manchester forum members will take both of you seriously?

In that case can you explain this? Post 414 onwards.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...400523&page=21

Last edited by jrb; June 30th, 2007 at 05:05 PM.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:58 PM   #139
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The test for both MIF and CoC is how much people are still talking about them in 2009.

'Festivals' are ten a penny. It will be interesting to see if MIF learns the lessons from this year and moves on. Until the festival is over we won't know what those lessons are. In the meantime, people are probably revealing more about their own pre-existing biases than anything else.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 05:04 PM   #140
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Yes jrb, the way in which Liverpool-hating Mancunians such as Tony Wilson have abused the privilege that London gifted them with when regional media was planted in Manchester to, not only propagandise for their city, but too undermine and misrepresent Liverpool makes me very angry.

I despise Granada. I loathe BBC Manchester. I hope they both cease to exist. Manchester itself, although not a place I feel any sense of being from same "region" as, any more than do any other city in the UK, I don't mind. Work takes me up there frequently and I usually have a good time. I find the people nice on the whole as well, and I'd certainly rather spend time there than, say, London - the other big city in England were I have to visit frequently for work reason.
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