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Old October 22nd, 2015, 07:32 PM   #3841
hkskyline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
You keep talking about danger and risk. These are just the excuses MTR gives so they have a means to stop parallel goods traders. The reason this ban was put in place was because of the ridiculous amount of space parallel goods traders were taking up in the MTR.

A whole MTR filled with mattresses and refrigerators: that is the sort of thing the ban was put in place for. Not one student carrying a cello.

"The key takeaway is what are the biggest risks that need to be addressed, not what are all the risks to remove, which is never possible." Exactly. Musical instruments pose virtually no risk. They should be allowed. Glad we agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaoTze View Post
If someone brings an oversized item on the MTR, then he should be prepared to take up the legal responsibility if someone else has been injured by his luggage. MTR staff not enforcing their regulations due to whatever reason does not make the practice legal. I'm just saying for items that pose relatively low risk, MTR staff should be given the free hand to not strictly enforce the regulations.
Legal liability rests on both the passenger and the operator (MTR) for not enforcing a safe environment and their regulations. Negligence would apply to both. Selective enforcement is something that needs to be avoided. Not only is that bad for optics/PR, it also throws the negligence question wide open. We can easily challenge MTR staff for their bad judgment in enforcement, leading to negligence and injury.

Large musical instruments and sports equipment are heavy and bulky, posing the same risk to other passengers as a cart of parallel goods. If any one of these items falls on an elderly passenger, a baby cart, or on top of someone's toes, it can cause a nasty injury. You don't need a horde of these items to make the risk real.

Is 1 of every kind of large uncommon item on a train conducive to a safe environment? If the orchestra of different large instruments doesn't injure you, you will have plenty of chances in the sports equipment department. Clearly, this selective enforcement logic fails.

Using another analogy. Should passengers carrying bombs be allowed on trains because it is not common, whereas knives should be banned because they are plentiful and more commonly available? Both are weapons. So why should selective enforcement make sense? Is the risk different?
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Old October 22nd, 2015, 07:34 PM   #3842
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It would be safest if the MTR was completely empty. Your complete ban of all objects regardless of volume or injury statistics logic fails.
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Old October 22nd, 2015, 07:36 PM   #3843
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
It would be safest if the MTR was completely empty. Your complete ban of all objects regardless of volume or injury statistics logic fails.
So people should carry bombs on board because we haven't had a single injury from them historically?
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Old October 22nd, 2015, 08:05 PM   #3844
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Wow... just, wow.


Let's stick to parallel goods traders and musical instruments.

Answer the following question:
When was the last time Sheung Shui was crowded by people carrying cellos and double basses to the extent it caused a significant risk?

Then I will answer the following question:
When was the last time Sheung Shui was crowded by parallel goods traders to the extent it caused a significant risk?
Answer: yesterday.
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Old October 22nd, 2015, 08:25 PM   #3845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Wow... just, wow.


Let's stick to parallel goods traders and musical instruments.

Answer the following question:
When was the last time Sheung Shui was crowded by people carrying cellos and double basses to the extent it caused a significant risk?

Then I will answer the following question:
When was the last time Sheung Shui was crowded by parallel goods traders to the extent it caused a significant risk?
Answer: yesterday.
Do you think a large, heavy musical instrument poses no risk to a crowded train?

The concept of danger has no relation to what happened or did not happen yesterday, or the day before that. Just because nobody died in Central crossing the street yesterday doesn't mean people can recklessly cross today and expect nothing will happen to them.
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Old October 22nd, 2015, 09:15 PM   #3846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Do you think a large, heavy musical instrument poses no risk to a crowded train?
I have never ever seen one in the MTR. One cello will not cause any issues.
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Old October 23rd, 2015, 04:53 AM   #3847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
I have never ever seen one in the MTR. One cello will not cause any issues.
So you are saying a large musical instrument will not cause any harm to any one ever in the future even when it drops or falls on a young child or elderly person?

That's quite a statement to make. Have you even carried one? Do you know how heavy that thing is?
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Old October 23rd, 2015, 12:02 PM   #3848
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Hung Hom Terminal (East Rail Line, West Rail Line, Intercity Through Train)

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Old October 23rd, 2015, 01:28 PM   #3849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
So you are saying a large musical instrument will not cause any harm to any one ever in the future even when it drops or falls on a young child or elderly person?

That's quite a statement to make. Have you even carried one? Do you know how heavy that thing is?
Have you ever seen me? I am bigger and heavier than a cello. If I fall over I can hurt several young children and elderly persons on my way down. Should I be banned?


In short: A was causing problems, therefore you want A and B to be banned. I want just A to be banned.
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Old October 23rd, 2015, 08:00 PM   #3850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Have you ever seen me? I am bigger and heavier than a cello. If I fall over I can hurt several young children and elderly persons on my way down. Should I be banned?


In short: A was causing problems, therefore you want A and B to be banned. I want just A to be banned.
So you are saying a cello has arms and legs like you that makes it less susceptible to topping over and hurting other passengers?

All large cargo items that pose a major risk to passengers should be banned from trains. Not just some. All. You are just saying some, which is missing the point. The MTR is not a cargo line.
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Old October 24th, 2015, 01:12 AM   #3851
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Exactly, large cargo should be banned, musical instruments are allowed. We are in agreement.
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Old October 24th, 2015, 05:32 AM   #3852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
So you are saying a cello has arms and legs like you that makes it less susceptible to topping over and hurting other passengers?

All large cargo items that pose a major risk to passengers should be banned from trains. Not just some. All. You are just saying some, which is missing the point. The MTR is not a cargo line.
The point is either the MTR should prosecute everyone with excess sized "items" or they prosecute no one, it's fair and square. Though I agree they should allow musical instruments.
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Old October 25th, 2015, 12:59 PM   #3853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Exactly, large cargo should be banned, musical instruments are allowed. We are in agreement.
Cellos are large and pose a safety risk. Haven't you read all my posts?

Other rail operators have also recognized that passenger safety is important, and have restrictions over the size of luggage that can be brought on board. This is not unusual.

New York - Rules of Conduct Sec 1050.9
No person may carry on or bring to any facility or conveyance any item that:

- is so long as to extend outside the window or door of a subway car, bus or other conveyance;
- constitutes a hazard to the operation of the Authority, interferes with passenger traffic, or impedes service; or
- constitutes a danger or hazard to other persons.

Nothing contained in this section shall apply to the use of wheelchairs, crutches, canes or other physical assistance devices.


Singapore
Only articles not exceeding the maximum dimensions are allowed to be carried onboard trains
1. Luggage or other articles: 81 x 58 x 30cm
2. Folded bicycles: 114 x 64 x 36cm


Tokyo Metro
... any items that may cause harm to or be a nuisance to other passengers are also forbidden

Taipei - http://english.metro.taipei/ct.asp?x...9078&mp=122036
Luggage and carry-ons should comply with the following regulations or the TRTC may refuse to transport them.
(1) Carry-on objects carried by passengers must not obstruct other passengers, and must be taken care of by owners themselves;
(2) The size of each carry-on object should not exceed 165cm in length, and the sum of length, width and height cannot exceed 220cm. This regulation, however, is not applicable to wheelchairs, electric wheelchairs, strollers, bicycles, and other carry-on objects approved by the TRTC;
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Old October 25th, 2015, 02:02 PM   #3854
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This regulation, however, is not applicable to wheelchairs, electric wheelchairs, strollers, bicycles, and other carry-on objects approved by the TRTC;

"and other carry-on objects approved by the TRTC". See, not that hard to make exceptions. A cello is less of hazard than a bicycle.
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Old October 25th, 2015, 05:15 PM   #3855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
This regulation, however, is not applicable to wheelchairs, electric wheelchairs, strollers, bicycles, and other carry-on objects approved by the TRTC;

"and other carry-on objects approved by the TRTC". See, not that hard to make exceptions. A cello is less of hazard than a bicycle.
A heavy cello poses a risk to passengers and exceeds the dimensions specified by the TRTC (The size of each carry-on object should not exceed 165cm in length, and the sum of length, width and height cannot exceed 220cm). Have they approved cellos as an exception? I don't think the MTR made the wrong judgment. The object under question indeed poses a sufficient enough danger to other passengers to be restricted.

You still haven't presented any facts to indicate why a cello could be safe on a crowded train. There is no basis to exercise discretion then.
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Old October 25th, 2015, 06:34 PM   #3856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
A heavy cello poses a risk to passengers and exceeds the dimensions specified by the TRTC (The size of each carry-on object should not exceed 165cm in length, and the sum of length, width and height cannot exceed 220cm). Have they approved cellos as an exception? I don't think the MTR made the wrong judgment. The object under question indeed poses a sufficient enough danger to other passengers to be restricted.

You still haven't presented any facts to indicate why a cello could be safe on a crowded train. There is no basis to exercise discretion then.
You still haven't presented any occurrences where a cello caused injury on a crowded train, or that any other objects could be safe on a crowded train.

The rule was put in place to combat parallel goods traders, not students with musical instruments. If a situation does occur where a musical instrument is causing havoc, MTR is free to take action.
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Old October 26th, 2015, 09:48 AM   #3857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
You still haven't presented any occurrences where a cello caused injury on a crowded train, or that any other objects could be safe on a crowded train.

The rule was put in place to combat parallel goods traders, not students with musical instruments. If a situation does occur where a musical instrument is causing havoc, MTR is free to take action.
You don't need a long history of bomb blasts to know a bomb is dangerous to our safety and well-being. The number of past incidents has no relevance to whether something dangerous is indeed dangerous or not. Simple logic.
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Old October 26th, 2015, 12:44 PM   #3858
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You are comparing one student carrying a cello to a bomb. There is no logic here.
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Old October 26th, 2015, 03:20 PM   #3859
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I think anything that you could have taken on board a plane hand carry should be just fine ,with the exception of the huge luggage.
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Old October 26th, 2015, 05:14 PM   #3860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
You are comparing one student carrying a cello to a bomb. There is no logic here.
How about using a cello box to smuggle baby formula?

The root cause stems from the unfair treatment among smugglers (or "parallel-traders" if you wanna say), who are usually from PRC, and Hongkongers. PRC smugglers are not fined if they carry oversize luggage, and these luggage are usually goods from Hong Kong, but local people are fined because of something like a piece of musical instrument.

It is MTR's responsibility to uphold their by-laws and treat every passenger equally, no matter he is a PRC citizen or a HK student carrying her school project but oversized. Giving concession to people carrying musical instruments is sidetracked, and giving an opportunity for smugglers to use musical instruments to bring goods on the MTR. It is very common for these reckless people using baby prams sans the baby to carry goods across the border.
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