Language usage in Macau: Portugese and Cantonese - Page 2

Muchenyi · January 21st, 2011, 08:03 AM

Oh meu amigo, you are a little stubborn, or you don't want to see the facts in front of your nose. I don't want to be rude, but it seems you have a lot of difficulties to understand Macau's reality... or even the reality.

Portuguese rule in Macau was never a dictatorship. Portuguese Govt in Macau never imposed the Portuguese language to the Chinese people. Both languages could share the same space together. Exactly as it happens now. They could have done it (if you don't speak the language, we throw you way to the other side of Portas do Cerco) but they didn't. China and Portugal enjoy a 5 centuries friendship and the cooperation and understanding of both parties make the success of today's Macau.

The law in Macau is bilingual. Got it? The judges in Macau are Portuguese and Chinese. And even if you have a Chinese or a Portuguese judge, it doesn't mean he can't speak both languages. The system itself is based in the Portuguese system, so it makes sense if you want to understand it deeply, you need Portuguese language knowledge. Compreendido?

BTW which locals are you talking about? The lawmakers who were complaining about juridical problems MSAR faced caused of the Portuguese language? If you are talking about them, after Chinese premier Wen Jiabao’s visit, we never heard from them again...

One last question to you. What were the benefits of Macau without the Portuguese as second language?

mrfusion · January 21st, 2011, 09:20 AM

This is exactly what I say, the legal system and everything else has always be bilingual, and the sky will not fall if the government decided to remove Portuguese altogether.

While the local (I refer to the resident of Macau, born and live in Macau, possibly also the 70-80000 foreigner working in Macau) knew they have been ruled by Portuguese laws for almost 500 years, but they have very little interest to understand it deeply. Which rise a question, do you need to be fluent in Portuguese to study/practice law in Macau, now?

There may not be any benefit to remove Portuguese as an official language, And I don't suggest to remove it, I do think removing (or perhaps phrase out) it does not have as much impact as you think.

Muchenyi · January 21st, 2011, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfusion

This is exactly what I say, the legal system and everything else has always be bilingual, and the sky will not fall if the government decided to remove Portuguese altogether.

Wrong, and wrong. 20 years ago everything related to the Govt was in Portuguese. Before the handover the Portuguese Govt of Macau decided to start working on bilingual. This mission is far to be accomplished.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfusion

While the local (I refer to the resident of Macau, born and live in Macau, possibly also the 70-80000 foreigner working in Macau) knew they have been ruled by Portuguese laws for almost 500 years, but they have very little interest to understand it deeply. Which rise a question, do you need to be fluent in Portuguese to study/practice law in Macau, now?

Two different things here. First, a Macau native can survive without the Portuguese. I give you that! Second, if you want to be a judge or a good lawyer you'll need the Portuguese skills to succeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfusion

There may not be any benefit to remove Portuguese as an official language, And I don't suggest to remove it, I do think removing (or perhaps phrase out) it does not have as much impact as you think.

I might give you reason in twenty years time. As of today, you would create a chaos in Govt bureaus.

Restless · January 21st, 2011, 02:15 PM

Couldn't Macau try to position itself as a gateway/hub for Brazil? It seems a logical step to capitalise on what makes them different from all the other cities in China.

Muchenyi · January 22nd, 2011, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Restless

Couldn't Macau try to position itself as a gateway/hub for Brazil? It seems a logical step to capitalise on what makes them different from all the other cities in China.

Its what Macau is doing. Beijing wants the teritory as bridge to the Portuguese speaking countries.

mrfusion · January 22nd, 2011, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muchenyi

Its what Macau is doing. Beijing wants the teritory as bridge to the Portuguese speaking countries.

I wonder if it actually makes any difference to ... say Brazil.

Muchenyi, do you mind telling us something about yourself, You are so fluent in Portuguese I don't think you are Chinese. Are you a judge or some other public servant in Macau, or perhaps you are Mr Vieira.

Muchenyi · January 22nd, 2011, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfusion

I wonder if it actually makes any difference to ... say Brazil.

What does make difference for you? Get ride of the Portuguese from Macau? Sorry to tell you. You will have to wait 39 years more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfusion

Muchenyi, do you mind telling us something about yourself, You are so fluent in Portuguese I don't think you are Chinese. Are you a judge or some other public servant in Macau, or perhaps you are Mr Vieira.

I and my life stay at the door of this forum. No, I am not Chinese. I am Macanese.

mrfusion · January 22nd, 2011, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muchenyi

What does make difference for you?

You said China want he teritory as bridge to the Portuguese speaking countries. I think China and Brazil has already got a reasonably strong trade relationship, I am not so sure if Macau ever play a significant role in these, if it did, will it continue to play and any role between the two countries.

Quote:

I and my life stay at the door of this forum. No, I am not Chinese. I am Macanese.

Hmm, Macanese, exactly what I thought.

Quote:

Get rid of the Portuguese from Macau? Sorry to tell you. You will have to wait 39 years more.

Doesn't bother me, you are Macanese, you are the one that have to wait. Portuguese eventual stay or go will definitely affect you more then the Chinese.

Muchenyi · January 22nd, 2011, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfusion

You said China want he teritory as bridge to the Portuguese speaking countries. I think China and Brazil has already got a reasonably strong trade relationship, I am not so sure if Macau ever play a significant role in these, if it did, will it continue to play and any role between the two countries.

So, the Chinese Govt is stupid, and you are the smart guy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfusion

Hmm, Macanese, exactly what I thought.

No, you thought I was a terrible Portuguese colonizer!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfusion

Doesn't bother me, you are Macanese, you are the one that have to wait. Portuguese eventual stay or go will definitely affect you more then the Chinese.

I have no fear. I know what Beijing wants for Macau. No worries. Hope you have learn something with this discussion (which I doubt)!

mrfusion · January 23rd, 2011, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muchenyi

So, the Chinese Govt is stupid, and you are the smart guy!

No, you are the smart guy, you live in Macau, must be heavily involved in the upper governments level, and know everything about Macau, Portugal, and China.

Quote:

No, you thought I was a terrible Portuguese colonizer!

whatever.

Quote:

I have no fear. I know what Beijing wants for Macau. No worries. Hope you have learn something with this discussion (which I doubt)!

I will definitely remember your opinions, and because of you, I spend a little more time reading other online articles (other opinions).

As Macau has been the a important link between Europe and Asia for 400 or so years, China want it to continue, but all because of its historical links, it say very little about the language itself.

This articles is a good read, that answer the OP's question. It is written by a persumably a Macanese.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e30de410-1...#axzz1BqJEkwUX

I have not see any articles that see the importance of the Portuguese language as well as you do.

Muchenyi · January 23rd, 2011, 09:43 AM

Thanks for the link but I will not waste my time reading american propaganda. Dot.

xrtn2 · January 24th, 2011, 11:20 PM

Isso é triste, ver um país como Macau perder parte de sua história , infelizmente acho que o português esta morto em Macau.

mrfusion · January 25th, 2011, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrtn2

Isso é triste, ver um país como Macau perder parte de sua história , infelizmente acho que o português esta morto em Macau.

See, even a Portugese (or Macanese) thinks that way.

Muchenyi · January 25th, 2011, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrtn2

Isso é triste, ver um país como Macau perder parte de sua história , infelizmente acho que o português esta morto em Macau.

Deve ter morrido hoje de manhã, porque ontem à noite estava bem vivo..

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrfusion

See, even a Portugese (or Macanese) thinks that way.

What way?

mrfusion · January 25th, 2011, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muchenyi

Deve ter morrido hoje de manhã, porque ontem à noite estava bem vivo..

What way?

Talvez apenas em sua parte de Macau, mas a maioria das pessoas não concordam com você.

Muchenyi · January 25th, 2011, 07:35 AM

Hey dude, please don't use the google translator! We can't understand a shit!

Read this : http://www.macaudailytimes.com.mo/in...l-benefit.html

Or this (use your google friend): http://www.jtm.com.mo/view.asp?dT=366403003

The number of Portuguese students increases at 9% per year !!!

Blackraven · January 25th, 2011, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkskyline

I think your expectation of English's role in Macau to be too high, as I have noticed in the past few years the quick move to simplified Chinese and Mandarin usage. If you walk into the local restaurants, people readily speak Mandarin to you, and it's not unusual to bump into Mandarin-speaking tourists. Even the Venetian has signs in simplified Chinese. As to whether mainlanders are keen on learning Traditional Chinese and English, I won't be surprised if they do, but ultimately they will use Simplified and Mandarin, and the tourism industry in Macau will need to adapt to that.

In the casino area of Sofitel Macau @ Ponte 16, the same was definitely true. And yeah, it's most likely cause mainlanders form a huge portion of the gambling crowd over there (and yeah, some of them spit on the carpet

).

But yeah, we may see more Simplified Chinese usage in Macau.

BUT

As raised by many people (from the Cantonese Sheik forums), any increase usage and shift towards SC will put traditional chinese at risk. In addition, any increase will also threaten Cantonese language in Macau as well (similar to what happened in Guangdong last year..........but thankfully the locals fought back against sole Mandarin usage on radio and local TV).

Still, my suggestion against any possible attack against Traditional Chinese and Cantonese in Macau stems on the people to protect their dominant language (which currently is spoken by more than 85% of the total population of Macau)

Anyways, now back to Portuguese language in Macao

Hmm........
Interestingly, I did encounter a first local Macau person who was Portuguese. He was an immigration officer in one of the immigration counters at HK Macau Ferry Terminal (aka Outer Harbour Ferry Terminal).

Anyways, there are Portuguese locals in Macau but yeah, those people are smaller in numbers compared to the general populace which is dominated by Chinese people (and Cantonese language at 85% or more).

Right now, it obviously at appears that there are more English speakers than Portuguese speakers. As of year 2007, the Portuguese speakers represented only less than 1% of the total population that time. Whether that numbers grows or decreases now and in the future depends on how or what Portuguese and will be to the Macau people now until the future.

Anyways, that's just what I think so far.

Still, I'd want to witness a Chinese person from Macau speak Portuguese. If that happens, then I'll "shit bricks"

On a random note
Here's another random street sign

Muchenyi · January 26th, 2011, 07:38 AM

Cantonese and Traditional Chinese are in final countdown too. As I said before sooner or later Mandarin and Simplified Chinese will take over the place in the public administration. In the streets, Cantonese will long live.

There are more Chinese natives Portuguese speakers than Portuguese natives in Macau.
If you don't see one, try to do an effort.

Andre_SP · January 27th, 2011, 10:08 PM

Muchenyi, vou para HK com minha esposa em Maio e, obviamente, visitaremos Macau por dois dias. Tenho muita expectativa de trocar ao menos algumas palavras básicas em Português com os Macaenses. Acha que vou me frustrar?
Abraços!!!

Muchenyi · January 28th, 2011, 03:51 AM

Caríssimo André, apanhará uma desilusão se for tentar falar português com o motorista de autocarro (que nasceu e viveu toda a vida nos confins da Mainland), com os funcionários dos Casinos e provavelmente até com os taxistas. Agora se for a uma instituição pública (Correios, Polícia, Hospital, etc), a um museu, a um restaurante macaense/português, com certeza que não terá dificuldades em encontrar alguém que fale a nossa língua. Provavelmente irá encontrar alguns compatriotas seus também. Tenha presente que os chineses que falam português ocupam posições de topo na hierarquia social, pois o domínio da língua da administração pública abriu-lhe outras portas.

January 21st, 2011, 09:20 AM	#22
mrfusion Home Energy Reactor Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Phnom Penh & Sydney Posts: 4,838 Likes (Received): 21	This is exactly what I say, the legal system and everything else has always be bilingual, and the sky will not fall if the government decided to remove Portuguese altogether. While the local (I refer to the resident of Macau, born and live in Macau, possibly also the 70-80000 foreigner working in Macau) knew they have been ruled by Portuguese laws for almost 500 years, but they have very little interest to understand it deeply. Which rise a question, do you need to be fluent in Portuguese to study/practice law in Macau, now? There may not be any benefit to remove Portuguese as an official language, And I don't suggest to remove it, I do think removing (or perhaps phrase out) it does not have as much impact as you think. __________________ Your brain has two parts: the left and the right. the left gets nothing right, and the right has nothing left. One of the basic differences between God and humans is, God gives, gives and forgives, Humans gets, gets and forgets.

January 25th, 2011, 07:35 AM	#36
Muchenyi BANNED Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 237 Likes (Received): 0	Hey dude, please don't use the google translator! We can't understand a shit! Read this : http://www.macaudailytimes.com.mo/in...l-benefit.html Or this (use your google friend): http://www.jtm.com.mo/view.asp?dT=366403003 The number of Portuguese students increases at 9% per year !!! Last edited by Muchenyi; January 25th, 2011 at 09:08 AM.

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January 21st, 2011, 08:03 AM	#21
Muchenyi BANNED Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 237 Likes (Received): 0	Oh meu amigo, you are a little stubborn, or you don't want to see the facts in front of your nose. I don't want to be rude, but it seems you have a lot of difficulties to understand Macau's reality... or even the reality. Portuguese rule in Macau was never a dictatorship. Portuguese Govt in Macau never imposed the Portuguese language to the Chinese people. Both languages could share the same space together. Exactly as it happens now. They could have done it (if you don't speak the language, we throw you way to the other side of Portas do Cerco) but they didn't. China and Portugal enjoy a 5 centuries friendship and the cooperation and understanding of both parties make the success of today's Macau. The law in Macau is bilingual. Got it? The judges in Macau are Portuguese and Chinese. And even if you have a Chinese or a Portuguese judge, it doesn't mean he can't speak both languages. The system itself is based in the Portuguese system, so it makes sense if you want to understand it deeply, you need Portuguese language knowledge. Compreendido? BTW which locals are you talking about? The lawmakers who were complaining about juridical problems MSAR faced caused of the Portuguese language? If you are talking about them, after Chinese premier Wen Jiabao’s visit, we never heard from them again... One last question to you. What were the benefits of Macau without the Portuguese as second language?

January 21st, 2011, 02:15 PM	#24
Restless Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: London Posts: 1,813 Likes (Received): 18	Couldn't Macau try to position itself as a gateway/hub for Brazil? It seems a logical step to capitalise on what makes them different from all the other cities in China.

January 23rd, 2011, 09:43 AM	#31
Muchenyi BANNED Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 237 Likes (Received): 0	Thanks for the link but I will not waste my time reading american propaganda. Dot.

January 24th, 2011, 11:20 PM	#32
xrtn2 Vivendo e aprendendo Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: GV - Brazil Posts: 8,163 Likes (Received): 844	Isso é triste, ver um país como Macau perder parte de sua história , infelizmente acho que o português esta morto em Macau.

January 26th, 2011, 07:38 AM	#38
Muchenyi BANNED Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 237 Likes (Received): 0	Cantonese and Traditional Chinese are in final countdown too. As I said before sooner or later Mandarin and Simplified Chinese will take over the place in the public administration. In the streets, Cantonese will long live. There are more Chinese natives Portuguese speakers than Portuguese natives in Macau. If you don't see one, try to do an effort.

January 27th, 2011, 10:08 PM	#39
Andre_SP Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Sao Paulo Posts: 21 Likes (Received): 0	Muchenyi, vou para HK com minha esposa em Maio e, obviamente, visitaremos Macau por dois dias. Tenho muita expectativa de trocar ao menos algumas palavras básicas em Português com os Macaenses. Acha que vou me frustrar? Abraços!!!

January 28th, 2011, 03:51 AM	#40
Muchenyi BANNED Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 237 Likes (Received): 0	Caríssimo André, apanhará uma desilusão se for tentar falar português com o motorista de autocarro (que nasceu e viveu toda a vida nos confins da Mainland), com os funcionários dos Casinos e provavelmente até com os taxistas. Agora se for a uma instituição pública (Correios, Polícia, Hospital, etc), a um museu, a um restaurante macaense/português, com certeza que não terá dificuldades em encontrar alguém que fale a nossa língua. Provavelmente irá encontrar alguns compatriotas seus também. Tenha presente que os chineses que falam português ocupam posições de topo na hierarquia social, pois o domínio da língua da administração pública abriu-lhe outras portas.