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Old June 18th, 2006, 01:52 AM   #3261
wigo
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Of course, but I was not the one raising politic issue in the first place here.

cphdude: let's done here. And please don't bring China politics here. THX.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 02:02 AM   #3262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wigo
BTW, do you know that S Korea, Singopore, HK and TW are the only examples that entering developed world among poor world after WWII? And none of them were democracy until they reached quasi-developed level?
Taiwan and South Korea are/were democracies last time I checked. Japan's economy was devastated by WWII. Admittedly Japan had been industrialising since the mid C19th but by the 1930s something like 90% of Japan's economy was devoted to armaments. The astonishing recovery and diversification of Japan's economy post WWII was achieved under democratic government. And what about central and eastern Europe? They were kept poor under Communist government but rapidly became economic success stories as soon as democracy was introduced from ~1990. Other countries like Spain, Finland, and Ireland also came from non-industrialised poverty as recently as the 1970s to success and wealth today. Finland used to be very poor but is now one of the wealthiest and most successful societies in the world on every measure and the Finns achieved it virtually no natural resources and with one of the most transparent and pure forms of democractic government anywhere. Israel is yet another example of a country that joined the developed world post WWII with democractic government all along.

Last edited by Monkey; June 18th, 2006 at 02:15 AM.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 02:27 AM   #3263
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S Korea, Singopore, HK and TW are the only valide cases for China because they had no industrial know-how right after WWII.

Japan already mastered sophiscated technology before WWII and they could built war planes, battleships all by themselves. And these techs were not ruined by war and played a central role in japan's recovery.

Eastern europe? Please, they got a lot of aid from EU since they joined EU. And for none-EU ones such Romania and Bulgaria, should I phrase?

Israel? US aid.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 02:29 AM   #3264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Taiwan and South Korea are/were democracies last time I checked. Japan's economy was devastated by WWII. Admittedly Japan had been industrialising since the mid C19th but by the 1930s something like 90% of Japan's economy was devoted to armaments. The astonishing recovery and diversification of Japan's economy post WWII was achieved under democratic government. And what about central and eastern Europe? They were kept poor under Communist government but rapidly became economic success stories as soon as democracy was introduced from ~1990. Other countries like Spain, Finland, and Ireland also came from non-industrialised poverty as recently as the 1970s to success and wealth today. Finland used to be very poor but is now one of the wealthiest and most successful societies in the world on every measure and the Finns achieved it virtually no natural resources and with one of the most transparent and pure forms of democractic government anywhere. Israel is yet another example of a country that joined the developed world post WWII with democractic government all along.
I would not say democracy will lead poverty, this is far from the truth. But you should also note at least half democratic countries are not developed. Japan, even defeated in WW2, was still one of the strongest country in the world. The war hasn't destroy anything on their own territory except two atomic bombs. They deprived the natural and labor sources of SEA and especially China and those are badly needed when you are developing fast.

The risk China changes directly to democracy at present will cause much trouble than in those tiny countries with no more than 10 million population.

But again, let's stop here. This thread should not be a political one.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 02:39 AM   #3265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wigo
S Korea, Singopore, HK and TW are the only valide cases for China because they had no industrial know-how right after WWII.
Most of eastern/central Europe had no experience of industrialisation whatsoever prior to WWII. Neither had Finland or Ireland. They were poor and forgotten provincial backwaters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wigo
Eastern europe? Please, they got a lot of aid from EU since they joined EU. And for none-EU ones such Romania and Bulgaria, should I phrase?
The central/eastern European economies only joined the EU in May 2004. They had enjoyed rapid growth, often in double digits, for years before they joined the EU. Bulgaria and Romania have fast growing economies now (and they haven't joined yet). Turkey has also been growing at 7% or even 10% pa with democratic government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wigo
Israel? US aid.
Israel is an incredibly pioneering abd innovative place. I have worked in that country and have a good understanding of how it developed (very different from most other western countries in so many ways). Believe me Israel did not get there primarily on the back of US aid but thanks to their own ingenuity and hard work in the face of very challenging circumstances.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 02:43 AM   #3266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wigo
Fine, so you think it is fair to compare China, a country experienced century of devastating war until 1949, with west developed countries, most of which got rich by exploiting other people including colonism, saling opium and trading black slaves long before 1949?
Dude, if you want to brag about how great Chine is and how much they are doing and growth and all that, then you need the whole picture...Okay? You cant on the one hand claim you are doing better then all the others, but at the same time not want to be compared with other countries. It does not work that way. Either you are in or not...everything else is just stupid.

The slave thing goes a long way back, and your historybooks tells you something different, China is an even bigger sinner then Europe on those fronts you mention. And much later then we ever did. Europe is not clean and innocent. But lets not be naive, neither is China...Far from it...
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Old June 18th, 2006, 02:48 AM   #3267
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The next wave of democractic success stories are places like Turkey, Ukraine, SE Asian Tigers, and India.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 03:00 AM   #3268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cphdude
Dude, if you want to brag about how great Chine is and how much they are doing and growth and all that, then you need the whole picture...Okay? You cant on the one hand claim you are doing better then all the others, but at the same time not want to be compared with other countries. It does not work that way. Either you are in or not...everything else is just stupid.

The slave thing goes a long way back, and your historybooks tells you something different, China is an even bigger sinner then Europe on those fronts you mention. And much later then we ever did. Europe is not clean and innocent. But lets not be naive, neither is China...Far from it...
Please enlighten us what China did in her history that is far worse than forcing people to buy drugs, holocaust, slavery, robbing other peoples' CONTINENTS, looting, starting world wars. Give me a short list of ... say ... five historical facts that says China has done worse!

BTW I have German, French and Britisch history collection at home book, never went to school in Mainland China!

Dšnen kann man nicht glauben!!!
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Old June 18th, 2006, 03:12 AM   #3269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloPerilo
Please enlighten us what China did in her history that is far worse than forcing people to buy drugs, holocaust, slavery, robbing other peoples' CONTINENTS, looting, starting world wars. Give me a short list of ... say ... five historical facts that says China has done worse!

BTW I have German, French and Britisch history collection at home book, never went to school in Mainland China!

Dšnen kann man nicht glauben!!!
50 years of examples. Take your pick. Its not my job to educate you...
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Old June 18th, 2006, 03:17 AM   #3270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Taiwan and South Korea are/were democracies last time I checked.
I have alway suspected that monkey does not know much about history.

http://www.answers.com/topic/park-chunghee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Jung-Hee
http://www.questia.com/library/encyc...ee.jsp?l=P&p=1

http://www.answers.com/topic/chiang-kai-shek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-Shek
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/Hist...nce/Hance.html

And also check at what economical stage S. Korea and Taiwan became democratic.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 03:18 AM   #3271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amit
Guys please.. this forum is about Olympics 2016 and NOT politics! As courtsey towards others, please refrain from political discussion on this forum, the rest of us are getting irritated with this mud slinging. Please donot hijack this thread.. PEACE!!
you are right. Be we should probably make a whole new thread, since this is very outdated. Whish may also be why people take the arguments a little longer, since the thread is done anyways. But you are right. Ill try and stop now, and if someone makes a new updated thread, ill do my best not to hijack it...
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Old June 18th, 2006, 03:23 AM   #3272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cphdude
50 years of examples. Take your pick. Its not my job to educate you...
Sorry, you were the one who claimed that China did far worse than Europe. Back it up! Don't you know the art of discussion?

Ok, I am so kind and give you a bit of help: China did not force other nations to buy drugs, did not enslave a whole continent, did not start world wars, did not steal a whole continent, did not burn and loot other nations wealth (natural resources, art, etc.) ... have I forgotten something?


Dšnen haben einen Arsch offen!
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Old June 18th, 2006, 03:24 AM   #3273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cphdude
you are right. Be we should probably make a whole new thread, since this is very outdated. Whish may also be why people take the arguments a little longer, since the thread is done anyways. But you are right. Ill try and stop now, and if someone makes a new updated thread, ill do my best not to hijack it...
Not a monkey but a chicken! Out of sensible arguments?
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Old June 18th, 2006, 03:29 AM   #3274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloPerilo
Please enlighten us what China did in her history that is far worse than forcing people to buy drugs, holocaust, slavery, robbing other peoples' CONTINENTS, looting, starting world wars. Give me a short list of ... say ... five historical facts that says China has done worse!

BTW I have German, French and Britisch history collection at home book, never went to school in Mainland China!

Dšnen kann man nicht glauben!!!
The Opium Wars were absolutely miniscule in scale compared to the slaughter during The Great Leap Forward (30 million dead - six times the number killed by the Nazis in the Holocaust) and the horrors of The Cultural Revolution. Chinese whinge and moan about Japan's WWII atrocities not being adequately covered in school textbooks and also about Koizumi's repeated visits to the Yasakuni shrine that honours Japan's war dead (including class A war criminals). However that's dishonest and hypocritical given that Chinese leaders (and people) pay respects at Mau's mausoleum in Tiananmen Square despite that fact that he murdered far more Chinese than Imperial Japan ever did. China's school textbooks gloss over the CCP's atrocities far more than Japan does her historical crimes. The 30 million dead from the Great leap Forward are barely mentioned and the massacre in Tiananmen Square is not covered at all. However the threat posed by the "Gang of Four" is covered in depth.

And China has for centuries bullied her neighbours and never accepted them as diplomatic equals. Since WWII China has invaded Tibet, aggressively attacked India and Vietnam in border disputes, supplied and supported Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge (who killed one third of Cambodia's population in three years), continues to support the vile military junta in Myanmar, maintains the vile regime in North Korea, works closely with Mugabe's appalling regime in Zimbabwe, and continues to threaten military aggression against Taiwan. China cannot bitch and whine about European colonial empires and aggression whilst maintaining imperial territories in Xinjiang and Tibet and acting so aggressively itself.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 03:30 AM   #3275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloPerilo
Not a monkey but a chicken! Out of sensible arguments?
absolutely...Or parhaps out of patience...
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Old June 18th, 2006, 03:37 AM   #3276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloPerilo
Sorry, you were the one who claimed that China did far worse than Europe.


And I fell that they have, by ceeping millions of people in a dictatorship, complete with secret police, torture, deathpatroles and capitalpunishment or imprisonment for life for people who do not agree with or speaks out against the party. By having no freedome to speak or practice religion or say and do what you want. By now alowing ownership or private rights and by cuntinuing to keep millions of people in powerty...

Now, do you want me to cuntinue... ?
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Old June 18th, 2006, 03:40 AM   #3277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloPerilo
I have alway suspected that monkey does not know much about history.
I have forgotten more about history than you'll ever know.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 03:43 AM   #3278
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Hey Monkey, you're still alive.. how have you been lately?
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Old June 18th, 2006, 03:45 AM   #3279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
The Opium Wars were absolutely miniscule in scale compared to the slaughter during The Great Leap Forward (30 million dead - six times the number killed by the Nazis in the Holocaust) and the horrors of The Cultural Revolution. Chinese whinge and moan about Japan's WWII atrocities not being adequately covered in school textbooks and also about Koizumi's repeated visits to the Yasakuni shrine that honours Japan's war dead (including class A war criminals). However that's dishonest and hypocritical given that Chinese leaders (and people) pay respects at Mau's mausoleum in Tiananmen Square despite that fact that he murdered far more Chinese than Imperial Japan ever did. China's school textbooks gloss over the CCP's atrocities far more than Japan does her historical crimes. The 30 million dead from the Great leap Forward are barely mentioned and the massacre in Tiananmen Square is not covered at all. However the threat posed by the "Gang of Four" is covered in depth.
Tell me where you got this 30 million number?
Is an unintentional policy mistake a slaughter?
How about the potato desiese wiped out more than half of irish population century ago, which was controlled by Britain then?
We have discussed about this, have we?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
And China has for centuries bullied her neighbours and never accepted them as diplomatic equals. Since WWII China has invaded Tibet, aggressively attacked India and Vietnam in border disputes, supplied and supported Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge (who killed one third of Cambodia's population in three years), continues to support the vile military junta in Myanmar, maintains the vile regime in North Korea, works closely with Mugabe's appalling regime in Zimbabwe, and continues to threaten military aggression against Taiwan. China cannot bitch and whine about European colonial empires and aggression whilst maintaining imperial territories in Xinjiang and Tibet and acting so aggressively itself.
No need to argue about every issue because of your poor historical knowledge and your bias.
Just let you know that Tibet has always been part of China since Yuan, Ming, Qing dynasties and Republic of China era, and the current Dalai Lama was endorsed by Rupublic of China gov't during 1930s.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 03:48 AM   #3280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
I have forgotten more about history than you'll ever know.
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