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View Poll Results: host city of Olympics 2012
London, UK 280 25.23%
Madrid, Spain 342 30.81%
Moscow, Russia 90 8.11%
New York, USA 206 18.56%
Paris, France 192 17.30%
Voters: 1110. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 5th, 2009, 12:15 AM   #7041
Onn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coth View Post
As I said, last few years was a turning point in world policy. BRIC has officially formed now and it's more powerful and more popular than USA or EU. All of BRIC counties are in top 10 of reserves. Russia alone has as much as entire EU. With China and Japan topping the list on 1 and 2 places. While USA has nothing, but trillions of credit debt, that making nearly 100% of US economy, comparing to 5% of China, 15% of Russia or 12% in Brazil.
Actually we have the largest GDP in the world, debt's not everything. Debt probably will not affect the US as much as you think. And China has more like 25% government debt. It's certainly more than 5%, and could be even larger than reported. It's not like Chinese debt is going to be going down in the future.

Second, the US is still a rapidly growing county, if you didn’t notice. It’s the fastest growing developed country in the world (of which two of the “BRIC” members are not, and will struggle even more as time goes on).

Third, the US still has by far the most powerful military in the world, and nothing is likely to change that for a number of reasons.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 12:29 AM   #7042
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Originally Posted by coth View Post
As I said, last few years was a turning point in world policy. BRIC has officially formed now and it's more powerful and more popular than USA or EU. All of BRIC counties are in top 10 of reserves. Russia alone has as much as entire EU. With China and Japan topping the list on 1 and 2 places. While USA has nothing, but trillions of credit debt, that making nearly 100% of US economy, comparing to 5% of China, 15% of Russia or 12% in Brazil.
Sochi bid has won thank to worldwide popularity of Russian federal government and thank to large amount of money.
As of Moscow - it's politically independent within Russia. It wasn't supported by federal government, nor politically, nor financially.
And you see, looking between $6bln bid and $60bln bid IOC will rather prefer second one.
So possibilities of Harbin 2018 and Saint Petersburg 2020 as federal bid are very very high.
Your whole rationale for the loss of the Chicago bid is kind of questionable. You claim that the U.S. is unpopular, but Russia (Sochi) and China are not? You also grossly overstate the popularity of the Russian government worldwide.

I don't think the current recession and the debt had anything to do with the Chicago bid. They knew that it would have been very successful and profitable anywhere in a large U.S. city with a huge corporate presence.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 12:37 AM   #7043
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Coth, you make it seem that my country is doomed...is that what you wish on others? Thanks mate! I wish the worst to Russia.

Last edited by aquablue; October 5th, 2009 at 12:47 AM.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 12:54 AM   #7044
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Originally Posted by El Mariachi View Post
Your whole rationale for the loss of the Chicago bid is kind of questionable. You claim that the U.S. is unpopular, but Russia (Sochi) and China are not? You also grossly overstate the popularity of the Russian government worldwide.

I don't think the current recession and the debt had anything to do with the Chicago bid. They knew that it would have been very successful and profitable anywhere in a large U.S. city with a huge corporate presence.
I wasn't mentioning current current crisis at all. I was talking about situation in overall.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ccount_balance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...by_public_debt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._external_debt


As i noted Chicago was able to spend as much as just $4,8bln, Rio olympic budget is $15bln. Tokyo - $4,5bln, Mardid $5,5bln.

Rio budget was as larger as other three bids in sum.

And yes, according to experts, not only gigantic olympic budget, but also Putin, who attended at Guatemala himself leaded Sochi to victory.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 01:00 AM   #7045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coth View Post
As I said, last few years was a turning point in world policy. BRIC has officially formed now and it's more powerful and more popular than USA or EU. All of BRIC counties are in top 10 of reserves. Russia alone has as much as entire EU. With China and Japan topping the list on 1 and 2 places. While USA has nothing, but trillions of credit debt, that making nearly 100% of US economy, comparing to 5% of China, 15% of Russia or 12% in Brazil.
Sochi bid has won thank to worldwide popularity of Russian federal government and thank to large amount of money.
As of Moscow - it's politically independent within Russia. It wasn't supported by federal government, nor politically, nor financially.
And you see, looking between $6bln bid and $60bln bid IOC will rather prefer second one.
So possibilities of Harbin 2018 and Saint Petersburg 2020 as federal bid are very very high.
It is amazing someone can be so smug who came from a nation who took it up the rear almost or as well as any other in the last two years. Claiming that somehow Brazil and Russia has any reason to be lumped together the same as fellow EU or U.S. states do I have no idea. The trade between China and the US alone absolutely drwarfs any Bric trade combined. So you can talk about all the grand proclamations and supposed solidarity but the meat is in the numbers such as China/US trade and investments which dwarf any practical interdependency the BRIC nations have with one another. Trying to make out like Bric is some grand and discernable economic block is a farce.

The EU and US are many times larger then the Bric nations combined and even though you desperately want to buy that the last two years radically and rapidly changed the whole geopolitical and economic order so that Russia can again regain relevance in order to appease to your shallow nationalistm but you are but living in a "new world" in your own mind much more then reality.

Public debt of GDP is 48.6% in the US (not at deseriable levels but not likely catosrophic) while those of India are 59% and Brazil is 40.2%, your fellow "BRIC" brothers. France and Germany rate out at around 75% of GDP.
http://buttonwood.economist.com/cont...=hptextfeature

As far as worldwide popular of Russian government. Yea, everybody loves how Russia levels Caucasus cities and assassinates domestic journalist it doesn't approve of. In many nations the approval ratings of the U.S. have gone up over 50% in less then a year in many cases so the turn around has been quick. The U.S. is relatively important it is quickly scorned and quickly embraced. In contrast to Russia which shows its importance and muscle largely by freezing peoples homes during the winter to its west.

As far as the lame claim about Moscow not being a Russian bid. Please, Moscow was every bit as much as Russia's bid as NYC was the U.S. and was looked at as such

If Russia spends 60 billion on at St .Petersburg bid that either speaks to Russian corruption, stupidly, or how utterly deficient St .Petersburg is now. Either way it nothing to be proud of.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 01:01 AM   #7046
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Coth, you make it seem that my country is doomed...is that what you wish on others? Thanks mate! I wish the worst to Russia.
Don't let him rattle you, nothing these people say has much truth to it. People just like to get on the US sinking bandwagon, because they think their country is the next big thing (when Russia is anything but, and China and India have each other to deal with).

And the US is also two times larger than Russia, and by 2050 will be two times larger than Brazil.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 01:05 AM   #7047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coth View Post
I wasn't mentioning current current crisis at all. I was talking about situation in overall.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ccount_balance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...by_public_debt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._external_debt


As i noted Chicago was able to spend as much as just $4,8bln, Rio olympic budget is $15bln. Tokyo - $4,5bln, Mardid $5,5bln.

Rio budget was as larger as other three bids in sum.

And yes, according to experts, not only gigantic olympic budget, but also Putin, who attended at Guatemala himself leaded Sochi to victory.
Brazil has included transit and other non-Olympic infrastructure projects in that. That would be like me including the 15 billion O'Hare modernization taking place as part of the bid package or the proposed three billion dollar downtown transit station.

I think Brazil will do a good job largely carrying through its vision but it didn't come through on many of its infrastructure promises for the Pan Am games so its best to tally up completed projects and cost AFTER they are done and not what the big plans and promises are before hand.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 01:23 AM   #7048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coth View Post
I wasn't mentioning current current crisis at all. I was talking about situation in overall.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ccount_balance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...by_public_debt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._external_debt


As i noted Chicago was able to spend as much as just $4,8bln, Rio olympic budget is $15bln. Tokyo - $4,5bln, Mardid $5,5bln.

Rio budget was as larger as other three bids in sum.

And yes, according to experts, not only gigantic olympic budget, but also Putin, who attended at Guatemala himself leaded Sochi to victory.

yeah, but what does that have to do with the Olympic bid? Your comments seemed like nothing more than to take a pot shot at the U.S. and spew your Russian pride.

As for the budgets, it would have gone higher than 4.8 billion, no doubt. It has for every other Olympic event, including Beijing-which overran 38-40 billion dollars. Forgive me if I am a bit skeptical of Rio's proclaimations of its guaranteed gigantic budget and being able to handle everything that goes along with the Olympics (security, infastructure, transport, etc). I guess that will be the most interesting part of these games---seeing how the Olympics affects Rio and how it changes it.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 04:23 AM   #7049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomarandlee View Post
Public debt of GDP is 48.6% in the US (not at deseriable levels but not likely catosrophic)
Economist isn't really a trusted source. It's a yellow press very similar to Wall Street Journal.

Quote:
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In contrast to Russia which shows its importance and muscle largely by freezing peoples homes during the winter to its west.
Now there we come finally to. Isn't many of US people live under brainwashed stereotypes against Brazil, Russia or China. Slumps, freezing people, beggary that's all you can say, when still questioning why Rio has won. So may be because it's very different from what you have seems last time on TV, may be because it's better, may be because it's more popular. It wasn't me who stated US is not popular anymore. It was Onn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Mariachi View Post
yeah, but what does that have to do with the Olympic bid? Your comments seemed like nothing more than to take a pot shot at the U.S. and spew your Russian pride.
I was saying the same about Madrid. Am I anti Spanish? Wasn't you doing the same over Rio and Brazil few pages ago?
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Old October 5th, 2009, 04:31 AM   #7050
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I was saying the same about Madrid. Am I anti Spanish? Wasn't you doing the same over Rio and Brazil few pages ago?
your criticism of Madrid wasn't as harsh.

I was not hating on Rio or Brazil though. I have made it known that Rio was my second choice after Chicago and I was upset with the IOC.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 05:27 AM   #7051
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Economist isn't really a trusted source. It's a yellow press very similar to Wall Street Journal.
Please, the Economist is one of the most respected widespread publicans in the English language. Fine, you stick to wiki and I will stick with long established journals which depend on their credibility to sell papers.

I think that your "yellow journalism" is a much more fair characterization of say the deplorable RT with their crack pot analyst.

Quote:
Now there we come finally to. Isn't many of US people live under brainwashed stereotypes against Brazil, Russia or China. Slumps, freezing people, beggary that's all you can say, when still questioning why Rio has won. So may be because it's very different from what you have seems last time on TV, may be because it's better, may be because it's more popular. It wasn't me who stated US is not popular anymore. It was Onn.
I am not talking about people people inside Russia, I am talking about Russia being so "loved" they resort to using their energy sector as a petty foreign policy tool by withholding supply so that foreign citizens will feel a literal chill of not duly respecting and bending to mother Russia who has an overly inflated nostalgia of her past and pines for the good ole where neighbors use to respect through fear.

Don't make a fool of yourself, when have I stated that Rio doesn't deserve a games because of its poverty or crime? Where have I stated any sort of "sterotype" that any Brazilian would take issue with as wrong? In fact I have praised Rio's virtues many times in these forums about how it is one of my favorite cities and think it is more then deserving. So please, put up or shut up.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 12:35 PM   #7052
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Shouldn't this be about Rio de Janeiro?
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Old October 5th, 2009, 03:13 PM   #7053
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Japan has 170% of public debt???
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1 ∀x∀y[∀z(z∈x⇔z∈y)⇒x=y] ____2 ∀x[∃a(a∈x)⇒∃y(y∈x∧¬∃z(z∈y∧z∈x))] ____3 ∀x∀w_1∀w_2...∀w_n∃y∀x[x∈y⇔(x∈z∧∅)]
4 ∀x∀y∃z(x∈z∧y∈z) ____5 ∀F∃A∀Y∀x[(x∈Y∧Y∈F)⇒x∈A] ____6 ∀x∀w_1∀w_2...∀w_n[∀x(x∈A⇒∃!y∅)⇒∃B∀x(x∈A⇒∃y(y∈B∧∅))]
7 ∃X[∅∈X∧∀y(y∈X⇒S(y)∈X)] ____8 ∀x∃Q(x)∀z[z⊆x⇒z∈Q(x)] ____9 ∀X∃R(R well-orders X)
10 V=ULTIMATE L
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Old October 5th, 2009, 03:31 PM   #7054
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Japan has 170% of public debt???
They spent an absolute s--t load in the 90's and early 00's trying to spend themselves out of the post late 80's crash. It could be said they never completely came out of the 90-91 recession and have been doing a series of stimulus plans ever since. That has contradictorily been follow by a very high personal savings rate though.

It is an example of why I am skeptical of all these national stimulus plans in vogue supposadly saving the day of various national economies.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 03:41 PM   #7055
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How do you even begin to work that out??? I mean, how are they still living!

It's like every citizen over there not only would have to been taken from all of it's assets, he'd have to do this nearly two times!
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4 ∀x∀y∃z(x∈z∧y∈z) ____5 ∀F∃A∀Y∀x[(x∈Y∧Y∈F)⇒x∈A] ____6 ∀x∀w_1∀w_2...∀w_n[∀x(x∈A⇒∃!y∅)⇒∃B∀x(x∈A⇒∃y(y∈B∧∅))]
7 ∃X[∅∈X∧∀y(y∈X⇒S(y)∈X)] ____8 ∀x∃Q(x)∀z[z⊆x⇒z∈Q(x)] ____9 ∀X∃R(R well-orders X)
10 V=ULTIMATE L
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Old October 5th, 2009, 06:13 PM   #7056
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they have enough savings for that debt...
debt is never something in absolute, always relative.
the japenese people really know how to save money.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 06:31 PM   #7057
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they have enough savings for that debt...
debt is never something in absolute, always relative.
the japenese people really know how to save money.
How can you own savings that are superior to your GDP?? Especially in the case which your debt IS superior to your GDP!

The only explanation would be to own money outside the country, bonds and etcetera, but do they REALLY have nearly their national GDP in oversea assets?
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4 ∀x∀y∃z(x∈z∧y∈z) ____5 ∀F∃A∀Y∀x[(x∈Y∧Y∈F)⇒x∈A] ____6 ∀x∀w_1∀w_2...∀w_n[∀x(x∈A⇒∃!y∅)⇒∃B∀x(x∈A⇒∃y(y∈B∧∅))]
7 ∃X[∅∈X∧∀y(y∈X⇒S(y)∈X)] ____8 ∀x∃Q(x)∀z[z⊆x⇒z∈Q(x)] ____9 ∀X∃R(R well-orders X)
10 V=ULTIMATE L
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Old October 5th, 2009, 06:45 PM   #7058
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I think this thread turned complety useless becoming the old and boring GDP/Best place on erth city x city thread!! Moderation should close it.

Last edited by TEBC; October 6th, 2009 at 01:08 AM.
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Old October 6th, 2009, 12:53 AM   #7059
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Quote:
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How can you own savings that are superior to your GDP?? Especially in the case which your debt IS superior to your GDP!
GDP is a flow... amount of production, wages... in ONE YEAR.
Savings is a stock... Amount on a given moment.

That's the answer... You don't need to keep 100% of your debt value in cash... You MUST have a minimum GPD and savings increase (in time) so you can finance your debt.... Countries don't pay the whole debt every year and then make a new one... They just finance the same debt over time...

Quote:
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I think this thread turned complety useless becoming the old and boring GDP/Best place on erat city x city thread!! Moderation should close it.
I agree.
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Old October 6th, 2009, 01:36 AM   #7060
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OIC Congress

Rio vs Chicago



Rio vs Tokyo




Rio vs Madrid



rio wins!!




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