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Old November 16th, 2013, 02:29 PM   #2061
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My whole point is: most people don't consider a night on a train as the same of a night on a hotel or at their home. Therefore, the time-saving comparison doesn't hold, because the sleep is very precarious on a moving train. This is why the market share of night trains is so low, and dwindling (not expanding) in Europe. In 1990, they had 4 times more seats/beds on night trains than now... and about 60% of flight capacity.
I don't know anyone who slept on a night train so bad that he could not make full use of the next day. Do you? Ever wondered why you are apparently the only one here who supports your view on supposed lack of efficiency of night trains?

Actually taking even a short flight wears me out more than taking a night train.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 02:49 PM   #2062
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What about Rome, Verona, Munich and the CNL to Amsterdam?
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Old November 16th, 2013, 03:14 PM   #2063
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What about Rome, Verona, Munich and the CNL to Amsterdam?
There are no night trains linking Italy to Netherlands AFAIK. There used to be a night train from Milano Centrale to Amsterdam. It took 16 hours to complete the trip! Unacceptable. No wonder it was withdrawn in 2009.

Also withdrawn were night trains linking Italy and Switzerland. With high-speed trains to Milano, anyone North of Bari or Salerno can comfortable travel on a daytime train to Zurich changing in Milano.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 03:23 PM   #2064
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No but there are regular services from Italy to Munich, and from there the CNL runs straight to Amsterdam.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 03:48 PM   #2065
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No but there are regular services from Italy to Munich, and from there the CNL runs straight to Amsterdam.
Yes, but services over the Brenero are slow. It is much faster to reach Frankfurt from Bologna via Milano, Luzern, Basel and Manheim.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 04:10 PM   #2066
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Yes, but services over the Brenero are slow. It is much faster to reach Frankfurt from Bologna via Milano, Luzern, Basel and Manheim.
The English term is Brenner, probably because thats the way locals call it, north and south of it alike.

And yes, possibly the Swiss route is faster. Will a Brenner base tunnel change that or will the Gotthard base tunnel be the fastest route?
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Old November 16th, 2013, 04:16 PM   #2067
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The English term is Brenner, probably because thats the way locals call it, north and south of it alike.

And yes, possibly the Swiss route is faster. Will a Brenner base tunnel change that or will the Gotthard base tunnel be the fastest route?
He doesn't like using English names. Everything is Milano and München instead of Milan and Munich. And in his mind South Tyrol is fully Italian, also in language. He once said that all place names should be written in local language only. A very backward opinion if you ask me, but there you go.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 04:48 PM   #2068
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The English term is Brenner, probably because thats the way locals call it, north and south of it alike.

And yes, possibly the Swiss route is faster. Will a Brenner base tunnel change that or will the Gotthard base tunnel be the fastest route?
Actually the fastest route to Frankfurt is via Simplon-Lötschberg tunnels. However, there are only 2 or 3 daily trains, if I'm not mistaken, that travel from Milano Centrale to Basel Hfb. via that route. Else you need to change either in Brig or somewhere between Lugano and Arth-Goldau.

A base tunnel between Austria and Italy will not change that,.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 05:11 PM   #2069
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I see. The Brenner base tunnel is interesting for destinations further eastwards, for example Munich.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 05:20 PM   #2070
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I see. The Brenner base tunnel is interesting for destinations further eastwards, for example Munich.
Well, the only connections where the Brenner link serves a purpose is travel between Italy, Innsbruck and Munich.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 05:27 PM   #2071
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I see. The Brenner base tunnel is interesting for destinations further eastwards, for example Munich.
Yes, but the Germans have to upgrade their side of the route. Moreover, the sector between the Italian portal and Trento is slow and winding. Beautiful as it follow the valley, but slow nonetheless.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 05:53 PM   #2072
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My whole point is: most people don't consider a night on a train as the same of a night on a hotel or at their home. Therefore, the time-saving comparison doesn't hold, because the sleep is very precarious on a moving train. This is why the market share of night trains is so low, and dwindling (not expanding) in Europe. In 1990, they had 4 times more seats/beds on night trains than now... and about 60% of flight capacity.
Of course, sleeping in decent hotel or home are generally batter, but sleeping in train aren't disastrous (for most people), so it's a matter of choice in each situation... No sence in taking night train if there an 2-3 hour seating alternative.
But considering growing decay of cheap liquid fuels, we are likely to see renaissance of night trains in our lifetime.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #2073
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Well, the only connections where the Brenner link serves a purpose is travel between Italy, Innsbruck and Munich.
A main purpose is freight rail anyway and there this corridor makes sense for some of the industrial hot spots of Germany, also beyond Munich. However, the track between Munich and the Austrian border needs some serious upgrade indeed.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 06:22 PM   #2074
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But considering growing decay of cheap liquid fuels, we are likely to see renaissance of night trains in our lifetime.
High-speed trains, not nigh trains, pose a threat to aviation.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 06:28 PM   #2075
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Both can be an alternative. I can grant for that as they are alternatives for me on many trips and I do choose between those two based on different factors. I doubt I am the only person who does so.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 10:13 PM   #2076
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High-speed trains, not nigh trains, pose a threat to aviation.
Firstly, they aren't mutually exclusive - there are already low-high speed solutions for overnight, and we likely to see more and better solutions in coming years.
Secondly, on some distances (1000+ km) a decent speed (160+) sleeper can be a more attractive then a high speed trains.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 10:30 PM   #2077
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Old November 17th, 2013, 11:05 AM   #2078
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This is similar to the situation that existed years ago. I travelled on that route and trains only went as far as Villa Opicina, where on transferred to a coach. Dies makes some sense as trains take quite a roundabout route to get down to Trieste.
It would make sense for this train to continue to Venice (and maybe it will one day) and Trieste just extending the Tram to Villa Opicina all the way to the station.
This is the very thing the EU is supposed to be good for.
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This should include Ljubljana-Venice.
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Old November 17th, 2013, 12:42 PM   #2079
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Well, the only connections where the Brenner link serves a purpose is travel between Italy, Innsbruck and Munich.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Yes, but the Germans have to upgrade their side of the route. Moreover, the sector between the Italian portal and Trento is slow and winding. Beautiful as it follow the valley, but slow nonetheless.
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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
A main purpose is freight rail anyway and there this corridor makes sense for some of the industrial hot spots of Germany, also beyond Munich. However, the track between Munich and the Austrian border needs some serious upgrade indeed.
Bologna-Munich is probably going to be the longest trip competitive with flying, but the route will be of great importance for all freight coming from Eastern and South Eastern Germany and any points East of it to anywhere in Italy. Assuming all the necessary track upgrades are done it will be a faster and shorter route than going via Switzerland.
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Old November 17th, 2013, 03:00 PM   #2080
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I heard about people flying from Verona to Munich, and getting a transfer shuttle to Innsbruck...

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