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Old December 6th, 2013, 02:45 AM   #2141
Reivajar
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It is exactly what I think, although it's true that for offering services only to Geneva probably cooperation with SBB wouldn't be completely necessary as K_ says.

Anyway, the most probable option would be just extending the TGV Montpelier-Geneva to Barcelona, either it is operated finally with TGV 2N2 or Renfe S100F. So, maybe SBB has not too much to say in that particular service.

Last edited by Reivajar; December 6th, 2013 at 02:52 AM.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 09:38 AM   #2142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Well, so they wouldn't need to be integrated on the Lyria network as far as they only get to Geneva and not farther in Switzerland.

It would be different if at some point those services would be extended to Zurich.
It will not come to that. There are at the moment only ten TGV Duplex which have been equipped to operate on the Spanish network. These are however not equipped to operate on the Swiss, Austrian, and German systems, and therefore must terminate in Geneva. I cannot foresee any of the potentially involved companies investing into refurbishing the trains, painstakingly long test rides etc just to add on a few potential customers in Zurich or Basel.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 10:46 AM   #2143
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With this new Paris <-> Barcelona service opening next week, I think it's time to repost my list (originally posted few months ago in another thread: here) of international lines/services from/to Paris :




Paris



High speed (& partially high speed) trains:

Eurostar:
Ashford, Ebbsfleet, Stratford, London. (18 trains per day)

Thalys:
Brussels (16 trains per day*), Antwerp, Rotterdam, Schiphol Airport, Amsterdam. (10 trains per day)
Brussels, Brussels Airport. (1 train per day)
Brussels, Ghent, Bruges, Ostend. (2 trains per day)
Mons, Charleroi, Namur, Liège. (1 train per day)
Brussels, Liège, Aachen, Cologne (5 trains per day), Düsseldorf, Düsseldorf Airport (NEW), Duisburg, Essen. (3 trains per day)
(*in total, 24 trains per day are serving Brussels-Midi from Paris-Nord)

TGV Nord-Europe (aka TGV Bruxelles-Province):
Brussels. (from Paris-CDG airport; 8 trains per day)

TGV Est-Européen:
Luxembourg. (7 trains per day)

TGV "Alleo":
Karlsruhe, Stuttgart (4 trains per day), Ulm, Augsburg, Munich. (1 train per day)
Saarbrücken, Kaiserslautern, Mannheim, Frankfurt. (1 train per day)

ICE "Alleo":
Saarbrücken, Kaiserslautern, Mannheim, Frankfurt. (4 trains per day)

TGV Rhin-Rhône:
Freiburg im Breisgau. (1 train per day; NEW)

TGV Lyria (formerly "TGV Ligne de Cœur"):
Basel, Zurich. (6 trains per day)
Neuchâtel, Bern, Thun, Spiez, Interlaken. (1 train per day)
Vallorbe, Lausanne (4 trains per day), Montreux*, Aigle*, Martigny*, Sion*, Sierre*, Leuk*, Visp*, Brig*. (* seasonal; 3 trains per week during winter)
Geneva. (10 trains per day)

TGV Europe France-Italia (formerly "TGV Artesia"):
Bardonecchia, Oulx/Sestriere, Turin, Vercelli, Novara, Milan. (3 trains per day)

TGV Atlantique:
Irún. (1 train per day)

TGV Méditerranée:
Monaco Monte-Carlo, Ventimiglia. (1 train per day)
Figueres, Girona, Barcelona. (2 trains per day; NEW)


-----------------------


Other trains & services:

Intercités de Nuit (night trains):
Irún. (3 trains per week; daily during holidays)

Elipsos Trainhotel (night trains):
Figueres, Girona, Barcelona. (6 trains per week during winter; daily during summer)
Vitoria, Burgos, Valladolid, Madrid. (5 trains per week during winter; daily during summer)

Thello (night trains):
Milan, Brescia, Verona, Vicenza, Padova, Venice. (daily)
Bologna, Florence, Rome. (daily)

CityNightLine (night trains):
Saarbrücken, Göttingen, Hanover, Hamburg. (daily)
Saarbrücken, Göttingen, Hanover, Berlin. (daily)
Saarbrücken, Stuttgart, Plochingen, Göppingen, Geislingen/Steige, Ulm, Günzburg, Augsburg, Munich (daily), Kufstein*, Wörgl*, Jenbach*, Innsbruck*. (* seasonal; once-a-week during winter)

Trans-European Moscow Express:
Saarbrücken, Frankfurt/Main, Hanover, Berlin, Frankfurt/Oder, Poznan, Warsaw, Brest-Litovsk, Minsk, Moscow. (three-times-a-week during winter; five-times-a-week during summer)





P.S. Of course there is also the Venice-Simplon Orient Express which serves several destinations from Paris Gare de l'Est, but since it's a luxury and seasonal service, I didn't mention it.
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Last edited by parcdesprinces; December 6th, 2013 at 07:29 PM.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 03:36 PM   #2144
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It is a pity the TGV trains to Milano don't use the new high-speed line. IF they did, they could even think of extending one of the trains to Bologna or even Firenze!
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Old December 6th, 2013, 03:46 PM   #2145
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Quote:
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It will not come to that. There are at the moment only ten TGV Duplex which have been equipped to operate on the Spanish network. These are however not equipped to operate on the Swiss, Austrian, and German systems, and therefore must terminate in Geneva. I cannot foresee any of the potentially involved companies investing into refurbishing the trains, painstakingly long test rides etc just to add on a few potential customers in Zurich or Basel.
Yes, I know. I was talking hypothetically.

Without a HSL between Perpignan and Nîmes, or at least the new bypass for Montpelier and Nîmes, travel times are not really competitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by parcdesprinces View Post
With this new Paris <-> Barcelona service opening next week, I think it's time to repost my list (originally posted few months ago in another thread: here) of international lines/services from/to Paris :
[...]

TGV Méditerranée:
Monaco Monte-Carlo, Ventimiglia. (1 train per day)
Figueres, Girona, Barcelona. (2 trains per day; NEW)
[...]
I would include the new TGV international services from Paris, TGV Elipsos, or TGV Renfe-SNCF in cooperation, like the Alleo services to Germany.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 04:20 PM   #2146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
I would include the new TGV international services from Paris, TGV Elipsos, or TGV Renfe-SNCF in cooperation, like the Alleo services to Germany.
In case you haven't noticed yet, I haven't included in my list, what company(ies) operate(s) which line(s)... I simply used the official names of the trains. Nothing more, dear!

BTW, what is the "TGV Elipsos"... 'Cause I never heard about such a name?


Anyway, indeed, I agree with you about the fact that Renfe and SNCF should have created some "real name" for the conjointly operated AVEs & TGVs (which should have included, IMHO, a nice and special new livery, just like the SNCF did with almost all its other partners when it was about new international high speed services).

I mean I'm disappointed about that, really!
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Old December 6th, 2013, 04:41 PM   #2147
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Hahahaha. Yes, I know. For me, not having a common brand is kind of crap...

Anyway, I thought the agreement used for the new international services between France and Spain was kind of different, but actually it is pretty similar to the agreement with the German DB.

They have created a "in cooperation" thing:





And the common brand used (Alleo for Germany, and Elipsos for Spain) is not intensively used...

I am not sure, but I remember that the ICE and TGV trainsets used for services between Germany and France haven't been "redecorated" with a new livery for Alleo, but mostly the national brands are still "the important thing". The only thing I've seen was the list of cities served on some TGV trainsets and maybe a slightly redecorated locomotive on some TGVs, not on ICEs trainsets.

Supposedly, SNCF and Renfe had registered a new brand name for operating the new high speed services: Gala. However, it is not used, and I've seen the elipsos thing used in some of the new maps... I need to look for it...
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Old December 6th, 2013, 08:22 PM   #2148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It is a pity the TGV trains to Milano don't use the new high-speed line. IF they did, they could even think of extending one of the trains to Bologna or even Firenze!
why don't they use them?
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Old December 6th, 2013, 08:36 PM   #2149
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Because, among others, of the "unofficial" SNCF-Trenitalia 'flame war'!


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Old December 6th, 2013, 10:31 PM   #2150
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why don't they use them?
Fees are higher for high-speed tracks. As in 600% higher.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 11:28 PM   #2151
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TGV Réseau sets 4501-4506 used to Italy aren't equipped with ETCS L2, and certainly SNCF thinks they are too old, and that even on the Milan-Turin HSL the trip to Paris would be too long, to be worth equipping these TGV with ETCS.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 10:34 PM   #2152
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I have always been under the impression that SNCF has no rolling stock that both has ETCS equipment, required on the Milan–Turin HSL, and is capable of operating under the 3 kV power supply present on Italian conventional lines. Am I correct?
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Old December 7th, 2013, 11:25 PM   #2153
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I don't know if the 3-current and Thalys TGV that go to Belgium are equipped with ETCS, however to go to Italy they would need also the SCMT equipment (which is similar to the ETCS L1 and was developed before it, planned to be a temporary measure until ECTS gains use in Europe).
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Old December 8th, 2013, 12:05 AM   #2154
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All Thalys train sets are equipped with ETCS, so they can utilize HSL-Zuid (Antwerp - Rotterdam - Schiphol) and HSL 3 (Liège - Aachen). The new Euroduplex trains that are being delivered for Franco-Spanish services are also capable of 3 kV and are equipped with ETCS.

SCMT is the challenge here, but chances are than an ETCS hardware vendor has already implemented a SCMT-STM (specific transmission module, some sort of adapter) which plugs into the ETCS system on board a train.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 12:14 AM   #2155
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Quote:
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All Thalys train sets are equipped with ETCS, so they can utilize HSL-Zuid (Antwerp - Rotterdam - Schiphol) and HSL 3 (Liège - Aachen). The new Euroduplex trains that are being delivered for Franco-Spanish services are also capable of 3 kV and are equipped with ETCS.
As far I know, the new TGV 2N2 are able to run under 1.5kV DC and under 25 kV 50 Hz (and eventually as well under 15 kV). I haven't read anything about 3 kV DC.

The difference is that units for the Franco-Spanish services have ASFA equipments as it is the basic, background and emergency system installed as default on Spanish HSLs in case of ETCS failure.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 10:39 AM   #2156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Well, so they wouldn't need to be integrated on the Lyria network as far as they only get to Geneva and not farther in Switzerland. It would be different if at some point those services would be extended to Zurich.
There is no need for that. In fact, the current Zürich - Paris services could as well be limited to Basel - Paris as well.

From Geneve you have excellent connections to the rest of Switzerland. Extending a TGV service would not add a single extra destination, nor would it get people there quicker.
Because Geneve is a joint French-Swiss station terminating services there makes things a lot simpler.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 12:02 PM   #2157
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By your logic, ICE trains to Interlaken and Bern should also be curtailed at Basel Hbf.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 12:24 PM   #2158
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They don't need to be, but they could be with only a minor inconvenience and time loss (max 10 min) for travellers.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 12:29 PM   #2159
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Maybe EC trains from Italy could be curtailed in Chiasso and Brig as well then?
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Old December 8th, 2013, 12:40 PM   #2160
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Maybe EC trains from Italy could be curtailed in Chiasso and Brig as well then?
Curtailing trains is not an advantage even if loses are not great, but in the case discussed previously where running them through would involve massive investments for just few trains a day it is acceptable. There are several ICE's every hour going through Basel SBB alone so the situation there is different.

As for connections with Italy that is not really the strong point of our network. Lot of trains are already curtailed in Chiasso and not by choice. Connections with France and Germany are much more frequent, better timed and with fewer delays.
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