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Old December 8th, 2013, 12:48 PM   #2161
Vaud
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Lausanne is linked to Paris by TGV through Vallorbe, there is no point in extending the TGV's from Geneva. As for the southern services (Montpellier, Marseille, Nice) I don't think there's enough demand from Lausanne to justify the extension. Geneva is an easy station to change trains anyway. As a matter of fact, the future services to Barcelona are expected to be extended at some point to Lausanne because demand in that case might be justified, although that is yet to see considering how easily accessible Geneva airport is.

edit: I just read the the original poster referred to extending the services way beyond Lausanne towards Zurich. That is never going to happen since it's absolutely pointless considering that inside Switzerland it would just act as one more (uncomfortable) IC since times to go beyond Geneva wouldn't be attractive at all for anyone departing from Bern or Zurich.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 01:07 PM   #2162
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Same story as always with the Swiss colleagues in this forum. Believe us or not, there are several good reasons for through connections.
1. Not everybody is young, agile, and just carrying a 1. 5 kilo backpack. Some people have problems getting up, lifting suitcases etc.
2. Missed connections: not all trains always arrive on the dot. While DB's services for example sometimes run without problems, sometimes everything gets messed up and you find yourself running after the conductor asking him for alternative connections, begging the conductor on the alternative train to accept your ticket, trying to remember whether at the next best station there is still a bus or taxi waiting at night etc. It is better to sit on a train knowing it will get you to your final destination sooner or later.
3. Psychological effect: do you think it is better to advertise a route as: "town X to Y without changing" or "you can travel from town X to Y if you change in U, V, and W...."?
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Old December 8th, 2013, 01:38 PM   #2163
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train tickets inside Switzerland are valid for all trains, so don't worry about begging the ticket controller. For example if you buy a Geneva-Zurich return ticket it would be valid for a week (since the distance is over 100km, otherwise it would be valid for the day), which means you can go to Zurich, then during the following days stop in Bern, stop in Fribourg, stop in Lausanne, then reach Geneva after a week, and the ticket would still be valid no matter what trains you've used. A TGV train ticket would work in the same way inside Switzerland, being valid for the day, not for a particular train.

Between Geneva and Lausanne there are at least 6 trains per hour, so if the train is 5 minutes late and you miss the train you wanted... you have to wait 5 minutes for the next one. Not really the end of the world. To Zurich there's one every 30min, still hardly a problem if your train is late.

I do agree with the baggages and the marketing, but you cannot put a direct train everywhere from every station based on that, right? There needs to be a minimum demand of passangers.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 02:28 PM   #2164
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
They don't need to be, but they could be with only a minor inconvenience and time loss (max 10 min) for travellers.
I think terminating ICE services in Basel does make sense. It won't even lead to longer travel times. Right now it happens quite regularly already that trains from Germany get turned short in a Basel and SBB runs a replacement service.

When international trains continue in Switzerland they do this in the slot of a domestic train, and are available for domestic passengers as well. As a result it usually doesn't matter if you have a through train, or have to change.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 02:35 PM   #2165
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Maybe EC trains from Italy could be curtailed in Chiasso and Brig as well then?
There is an important difference. Geneve and Basel are important cities ( 2nd and 3d largest cities in Switzerland I believe). They also happen to be near the border. Terminating international trains there means terminating them in a major transportation hub.

It happens sometimes that trains from Italy do get terminated in Chiasso, and then everyone transfers to a connecting train. There the difference with Basel becomes apparent. Even on through ICE services I see most people get of in Basel... It's a major destination in its own right.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 03:16 PM   #2166
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SBB instructs its passengers not to use certain trains coming from Italy for domestic services.

For instances, if I search trains Lugano-Zürich tomorrow, the EC trains coming from Italy have the following note

Quote:
EC 12 (Chiasso - Zürich HB) Travel advice: (EC 12) Passengers from Chiasso to Lugano, Bellinzona, Arth-Goldau, Zug and Zürich HB are kindly requested to use the ICN 10012, departure from Chiasso at 07:45.

Or in the opposite direction
Quote:
EC 15 (Zürich HB - Lugano) Travel advice: (EC15) Passengers travelling to Zug, Arth-Goldau, Bellinzona, Locarno (changing in Bellinzona) and Lugano are advised to take the ICN 10015 departing from Zurich HB at 09:01
There are no such instructions for the EC Milano-Bern/Basel.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 03:21 PM   #2167
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
SBB instructs its passengers not to use certain trains coming from Italy for domestic services. For instances, if I search trains Lugano-Zürich tomorrow, the EC trains coming from Italy have the following note Or in the opposite direction There are no such instructions for the EC Milano-Bern/Basel.
The Gotthard route is very busy on weekends, so some trains are doubled. You see this from the train numbers.
Doubling Basel - Milano EC services between Bern and Brig is quite common too.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 03:24 PM   #2168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Some people have problems getting up, lifting suitcases etc.
I do see indeed people travel with to much luggage... But Swiss are used to train travel.
Quote:
2. Missed connections: not all trains always arrive on the dot. While DB's services for example sometimes run without problems, sometimes everything gets messed up and you find yourself running after the conductor asking him for alternative connections, begging the conductor on the alternative train to accept your ticket,..
Missed connections are rare in Switzerland. And when you do miss a connection because of a delay you don't need to "beg" the conductor. You just tell him you missed your intended train, and are now taking his' train.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 03:25 PM   #2169
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The Gotthard route is very busy on weekends, so some trains are doubled. You see this from the train numbers.
Doubling Basel - Milano EC services between Bern and Brig is quite common too.
What do you mean by doubling trains? Attaching a second EMU or running a phantom train near its schedule?
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Old December 8th, 2013, 03:27 PM   #2170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
SBB instructs its passengers not to use certain trains coming from Italy for domestic services.

For instances, if I search trains Lugano-Zürich tomorrow, the EC trains coming from Italy have the following note




Or in the opposite direction


There are no such instructions for the EC Milano-Bern/Basel.
Requesting is not the same as instructing.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 03:38 PM   #2171
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Curtailing services in a border station could make sense if the demand is not as high, but if the demand for getting from Barcelona or from any of the intermediate stations in Southwestern France to Lausanne or Zurich is relatively high, it could make perfectly sense extending the services farther within Switzerland. For me it is the only logical criteria for dealing with those situations.

The fact was that the former night trenhotel from Barcelona finished in Zurich. Besides, as those international services works in France and Spain, they could work as domestic trains within Switzerland and replacing some of the current IC trains with similar schedule.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 04:21 PM   #2172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Curtailing services in a border station could make sense if the demand is not as high, but if the demand for getting from Barcelona or from any of the intermediate stations in Southwestern France to Lausanne or Zurich is relatively high, it could make perfectly sense extending the services farther within Switzerland. For me it is the only logical criteria for dealing with those situations.

The fact was that the former night trenhotel from Barcelona finished in Zurich. Besides, as those international services works in France and Spain, they could work as domestic trains within Switzerland and replacing some of the current IC trains with similar schedule.
1- How do you know what demand is there between Barcelona and Southwestern France to Lausanne and Zurich if nowadays there are no such services which could be used to measure ridership? Do you have a source of information you can provide to prove the point?
2- Barcelone-Zurich elipsos trenhotel service was precisely stopped for a reason, which is that it was a money-losing machine (and the tgv was about to began services).
3- You can't replace IC Geneva-Lausanne-Zurich or Geneva-Neuchâtel-Zurich services with those international trains for at least 2 reasons, 1- the reliability of schedules would be highly compromised and 2- the capacity of TGV in Geneva-Lausanne-Zurich would be insufficient and the trains running on the Neuchâtel services need to be tilting trains to keep with the schedules and the 2h40min duration Geneva-Zurich in both lines.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 04:43 PM   #2173
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I wonder if Switzerland is the only significant (= good train service) country in Europe where it doesn't matter which train you take between A and B. The ticket is valid on all trains and both local and express cost the same.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 04:45 PM   #2174
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I wonder if Switzerland is the only significant (= good train service) country in Europe where it doesn't matter which train you take between A and B. The ticket is valid on all trains and both local and express cost the same.
That is because Switzerland is the Speed Bump of European rail travel
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Old December 8th, 2013, 05:03 PM   #2175
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You always take one extreme to the other. You can never be modest. There are these things called mountains in Switzerland.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 05:06 PM   #2176
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1- How do you know what demand is there between Barcelona and Southwestern France to Lausanne and Zurich if nowadays there are no such services which could be used to measure ridership? Do you have a source of information you can provide to prove the point?
2- Barcelone-Zurich elipsos trenhotel service was precisely stopped for a reason, which is that it was a money-losing machine (and the tgv was about to began services).
3- You can't replace IC Geneva-Lausanne-Zurich or Geneva-Neuchâtel-Zurich services with those international trains for at least 2 reasons, 1- the reliability of schedules would be highly compromised and 2- the capacity of TGV in Geneva-Lausanne-Zurich would be insufficient and the trains running on the Neuchâtel services need to be tilting trains to keep with the schedules and the 2h40min duration Geneva-Zurich in both lines.
I was talking hypothetically, not saying that the direct train should be programmed between Barcelona and Zurich. The only real information about ridership between Zurich and Barcelona is it is the 10th busiest air route for the Zurich airport with more than 500,000 PAX. But just considering current ridership could not be the only criteria for developing new links between cities: in such case many of the new high speed connections wouldn't exist as they are new routes (or if not new ones, at least yes radically different than the old ones).

Anyway, the most problematic thing of having non-stop services from Spain to Zurich is the lack of high-speed line between Perpignan and Nimes, which makes the trip less competitive.

About the former night-train between Zurich and Barcelona: it was just an expensive night train, as most of the train-hotels in Spain. They worked relatively well in the pre-low-cost time, but not anymore. Actually, most of them have disappeared within Spain too, and it is not because a lack of demand.

You're right about the need of tilting trains for keeping current travel times between Geneva and Zurich. I didn't remember it. In such case, enlarging high-speed services with non-tilting trains is not worth it...
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Old December 8th, 2013, 05:17 PM   #2177
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You always take one extreme to the other. You can never be modest. There are these things called mountains in Switzerland.
The real problem are not the Alps, but the fact they don't allow (at least on an easy way) paths for international trains that don't follow domestic schedules.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 05:45 PM   #2178
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I wonder if Switzerland is the only significant (= good train service) country in Europe where it doesn't matter which train you take between A and B. The ticket is valid on all trains and both local and express cost the same.
That is not only the case in Switzerland. It's also like that in Belgium, The Netherlands and Austria. In Germany if you have a tarif level A ticket you are also very free in you choice of routes.
In fact, train specific tickets, that you can't just take to another are really the exception, not the norm. They are becoming more common in long distance travel, that is true.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 05:47 PM   #2179
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That is because Switzerland is the Speed Bump of European rail travel
You know that repeating something which you know to be untrue is called "lying"?
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Old December 8th, 2013, 05:48 PM   #2180
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The real problem are not the Alps, but the fact they don't allow (at least on an easy way) paths for international trains that don't follow domestic schedules.
Oh, but they do allow them. You will just pay a lot more for them, which is why no railway company is interested in them.
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