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Old February 28th, 2014, 06:02 PM   #2321
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
That´s also an option, but security was no game in Spain till recent dates... and I suspect it still isn´t. So better leave that option open and visible, more as a reminder than anything else, just in case. At least, for now. And like I said, it doesn´t take more time than IDTGV or Ouigo.
Its security theatre. It doesn't really server a purpose. For one thing, it's not going to stop any terrorists.

What it does do, is increase friction in the system. In Switzerland 3 minute transfers are common, and considered not a problem. If I want to go to Paris I have only a few minutes between my train from Bern and the TGV to Paris in Basel. This is not an issue here though.
I don't see how that could currently be organized at Sants for example.

And yes, it doesn't take as much time as iDTGV as well, but those are also steps backward...

The problem of misbehaving passengers is not solved by gating the platforms. in Switzerland the railway unions want something done about violence towards railway staff as well. What they are not asking for is gating. Wouldn't be possible anyway.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 01:47 AM   #2322
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Quote:
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Its security theatre. It doesn't really server a purpose. For one thing, it's not going to stop any terrorists.
Any? I think you took things a bit over the top there, didn´t you?
And terrorism isn´t necessarily everything security must care for, btw.

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What it does do, is increase friction in the system. In Switzerland 3 minute transfers are common, and considered not a problem. If I want to go to Paris I have only a few minutes between my train from Bern and the TGV to Paris in Basel. This is not an issue here though.
A 3-minute connection isn´t maybe worth it to everyone... namely an old lady travelling alone.
And it´s not feasible in all kinds of stations:

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I don't see how that could currently be organized at Sants for example.
In many cases, a 3-minute connection at Sants isn´t possible, since Sants (or other bigger stations) is ill-adapted to that. Madrid-Atocha is another case that comes to mind, both Barcelona-Sants and Madrid-Atocha are big stations with groups of dedicated tracks.

Although I acknowledge that Barcelona-Sants is in need of a massive reorganization of space (and its current situation is transitional). Madrid-Atocha is an entirely different animal though, it´s a big station, like London-St Pancras, or Paris-Gare de Lyon, too many tracks, too many platforms and too many passengers for a 3-minute transfer.

Last Monday, when I went to Montpellier, I did a connection at Sants, and although nothing happened in the end, it could have been too tight.
Maybe if I had been an 81-year-old lady I wouldn´t have made it onto the TGV to France. A 3-minute connection is ok if both connecting services are frequent, otherwise it might be too risky.

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And yes, it doesn't take as much time as iDTGV as well, but those are also steps backward...

The problem of misbehaving passengers is not solved by gating the platforms. in Switzerland the railway unions want something done about violence towards railway staff as well. What they are not asking for is gating. Wouldn't be possible anyway.
You don´t have the cure-all for these things, no one does, but those are tools that can keep some people from committing fraud or other things.

I really can´t imagine nowadays the Paris, Barcelona, Madrid or London commuter systems without the barriers, and Japan uses them massively.

So yes, Switzerland could use them too, it´s just a mater of making a decision.
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Last edited by 437.001; March 1st, 2014 at 01:52 AM.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 11:01 AM   #2323
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Any? I think you took things a bit over the top there, didn´t you?
No.
Suppose you locked your front door, but left your rear door open, en put a note on your front door that your rear door is open. How many thieves would that stop. How seriously would you expect to be taken if you described your measures as "anti thieving measures".
Last time in Sants I only needed 5 minutes to find out how I could have gotten whatever I wanted on an AVE to Madrid. You think terrorists wouldn't do some scouting beforehand?

Quote:
And terrorism isn´t necessarily everything security must care for, btw.
What other things must Spain care for that everyone else doesn't?

Quote:
A 3-minute connection isn´t maybe worth it to everyone... namely an old lady travelling alone.
And it´s not feasible in all kinds of stations:

In many cases, a 3-minute connection at Sants isn´t possible, since Sants (or other bigger stations) is ill-adapted to that. Madrid-Atocha is another case that comes to mind, both Barcelona-Sants and Madrid-Atocha are big stations with groups of dedicated tracks.
So is Zürich. Arguably one of the bigger, and certainly busiest stations in Europe. And there 3 minute connections are usually not a problem.

The thing is to keep important connections cross platform. For example, in Basel any Zürich - France or Zürich - Germany train will have a Brig - Bern - Basel, or Interlaken - Bern - Basel on the side of the platform when it stops in Basel.

Quote:
Although I acknowledge that Barcelona-Sants is in need of a massive reorganization of space (and its current situation is transitional). Madrid-Atocha is an entirely different animal though, it´s a big station, like London-St Pancras, or Paris-Gare de Lyon, too many tracks, too many platforms and too many passengers for a 3-minute transfer.
How is Sagrera going to be? One way of making transfers fast is having lots of stairs up (or down) from platforms. In Zürich for example there is both the concourse at the end of the tracks, and a wide underpass with two sets of stairs, escalators and elevators. And a second underpass is opening soon.

Quote:
So yes, Switzerland could use them too, it´s just a mater of making a decision.
No, in Switzerland this would go completely against the whole principle of making public transit easier.
In Switzerland it's common for train platforms to be integrated in the public space. I know of places where restaurants are directly at the platform, and even people's front doors (I want to live in such a flat :-).

There areas little barriers as possible between platforms and their surroundings. For example, when a platform runs parallel to a street the Swiss will not put a fence between the street an the platform. People can access the platform along it's whole length. This is Zürich. You can actually see the trains from the street, and just cross it an board one...


And what about this kind of transfers:


Adding gates would mean a complete redesign of most stations.
Something that is also very un-swiss is making a distinction between different types of trains tariff wise. If you buy a ticket from Zürich Airport to downtown you can use it on any train, from S-Bahn to Eurocity on that route, and even on the tram or bus. When you buy a ticket from Zürich to Basel you can again take any train, even the Zürich - Paris TGV...
It's all about making the threshold to taking public transport as low as possible. And it's quite successful...
In the Netherlands they are adding gates, and everybody is unhappy about it. It's cutting of peoples walking routes for example, and cities are contesting them, with the argument that stations are public places, just like squares and streets are.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 11:54 AM   #2324
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There are railway systems which are faster than the Swiss one (no real HS here) and many are cheaper, but I'm not aware of any which would be more frequent, better integrated or easier to use. This is something other countries could learn from Switzerland not the other way around.

As for gates they are fine for long distance trains wherever those are completely segregated from the suburban traffic (like in Spain) or for subway systems where everyone has to access through 2-3 points anyway.

If I was a terrorist in Spain (you all are lucky that I'm not ) I'd bomb subways or suburban trains during the rush hour instead. Easier access and a lot more damage.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 12:58 PM   #2325
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http://www.bahnREMOVETHISbilder.de/name/einzelbild/number/60089/kategorie/Schweiz~Privatbahnen~AB+RHB+Rorschach-Heiden-Bergbahn.html

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...n-Bergbahn.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...fenbahnhof.jpg

http://www.voba-medien.de/assets/ima...ZP-800-519.jpg

(source of the latter photo: http://www.voba-medien.de/html/vorbi...er-bahnen.html)
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Old March 1st, 2014, 01:30 PM   #2326
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Swiss rail system is good in some aspects but bad in others.

It is a lame and substandard solution to have transportation facilities that have to double down as pedestrian sidewalks or else.

------------------

As for people complaining, most people will always complain when something about their transportation patterns change. Drivers whine when one-way street grids are changed or new interchanges make them need to learn a new route. Local commuters don't like when tram lines are reorganized over the city tracks. Train users always get bitter when there are major reorganization of services on a corridor. When they abolished a defunct category of trains (sneltrein) in Netherlands, there were some angry complaints about people that lost their direct (if slower) trains on specific relations, even if the change was overall positive for the system.

Using fare gates goes the same way: people get used to it. Even if they don't like it at first. I witnessed the gating of Amsterdam subway system, it works perfectly fine, though in the beginning you had passengers a bit lost.

SBB should invest in making its train system better, physically isolating stations would be a start. Passengers should have a clear perception of when they are exiting a street and coming into a station. This is what ProRail is doing in the Netherlands with some new station projects.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 01:31 PM   #2327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
If I was a terrorist in Spain (you all are lucky that I'm not ) I'd bomb subways or suburban trains during the rush hour instead. Easier access and a lot more damage.
That's exactly what the terrorists did btw...

But if one wanted to bomb an AVE as it was entering Atocha that would not be hard either.

Last edited by K_; March 1st, 2014 at 02:41 PM.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 01:34 PM   #2328
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It is a lame and substandard solution to have transportation facilities that have to double down as pedestrian sidewalks or else.
No it s not a "lame solution". It is excellent psychology. Make the station part of the public domain, and people will integrate in their mental map. Increased mindshare means more customers, and that without having to bankrupt the country building HSLs...

Understanding the psychology of transportation is an important part of making a transportation system successful.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 01:35 PM   #2329
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SBB should invest in making its train system better, physically isolating stations would be a start. Passengers should have a clear perception of when they are exiting a street and coming into a station. This is what ProRail is doing in the Netherlands with some new station projects.
SBB is investing a lot to make their train system better (Gotthard base tunnel, Zurich city line, connections to French network in Geneva etc), but physically isolating stations is NOT a route to a "better" train system.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 01:38 PM   #2330
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HSL's are very appropriate for big countries where they, among other things, relieve air routes. In Switzerland it's a borderline case... Perhaps a case could be made for a new fast line from Zurich and Basel to Geneva, but due to difficult geography costs would be very high. Probably on par if not higher than for Gotthard Base tunnel.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 01:45 PM   #2331
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New link German-Denamrk

Does anyone know of what high-speed lines projects are on the pipeline to complement the new Fehrman tunnel?
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Old March 1st, 2014, 01:52 PM   #2332
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Does anyone know of what high-speed lines projects are on the pipeline to complement the new Fehrman tunnel?
Copenhagen-Ringsted line (ca 60 km, 250 km/h) is already in construction. I don't think there are any other high speed lines in plans, but there will be upgrades (160 km/h, double tracking, electrification etc).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen-Ringsted_Line
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Old March 1st, 2014, 02:38 PM   #2333
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The line from Ringsted to Fehmarn will be upgraded to 200 km/h.
We could also hope that the Germans will build a new line between Lübeck and Fehmarn.
The plan is to have 1 tph between Copenhagen and Hamburg (+ some local trains). And the traveltime goes from aprox. 4,5 hours to around 3.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 02:43 PM   #2334
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I still think a fixed link from Rostock would have been better but that is a moot point now.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 02:47 PM   #2335
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HSL's are very appropriate for big countries where they, among other things, relieve air routes. In Switzerland it's a borderline case... Perhaps a case could be made for a new fast line from Zurich and Basel to Geneva, but due to difficult geography costs would be very high. Probably on par if not higher than for Gotthard Base tunnel.
The fast line from Bern to Olten was built in a way that it can become part of a fast Zürich - Bern HSL. The alignment for example does permit 300 kph.

And then there are ideas like the "Swiss Metro". But I don't know if turning Switzerland in to just a big city with different neighbourhoods and a big park in the middle is really what we wamt...
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Old March 1st, 2014, 03:30 PM   #2336
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Actually I'm convinced that serious discussions of another Zurich-Geneva line will restart in not too distant future after the current mega projects are in operation and the argument will be mostly about increase of capacity with a side benefit of shorter travel times. Zurich-Bern is very congested already and will become more so in the future, same is true for Lausanne-Geneva. As you correctly stated the new Bern-Olten line is already adapted for being a part of such a system (perhaps another track will be needed there). Switzerland would only really need one HS line with short branches. Zurich-Geneva with intermediate stops in Olten, Bern, Fribourg and Lausanne and a branch from Basel to Olten, maybe also Olten-Luzern for better connections to the Gotthard tunnel. Such an arrangement in addition to connecting all major Swiss cities would also allow through traffic from Germany to Geneva and onwards to France and from France to Italy via Switzerland. Currently it takes 2 h 40 min to get from Zurich to Geneva, technically it wouldn't be particularly difficult to get it down to 1 h 40 min. I'm sure it could be done in such a way that the best features of our system (high connectivity, clock-face scheduling etc) are preserved. Of course there will be a need for $$$$$$$$$$$$$.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 03:52 PM   #2337
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HSL's are very appropriate for big countries where they, among other things, relieve air routes. In Switzerland it's a borderline case...
Switzerland is both bigger and richer than Taiwan, that does have HSL.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 03:59 PM   #2338
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Taiwan has three times the population.

New lines between Geneva and Lausanne, and Olten and Zürich, may be good (new tunnels on Basel-Olten and Zürich-Lucerne are already planned). And Biasca-Bellinzona-Chiasso later.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 04:30 PM   #2339
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Actually the weakest point on the entire cross-country route is Bern-Lausanne section. It takes more than an hour for just 100 km. Investing money there would make the biggest difference time wise.

P.S. Perhaps we should be discussing this in the Swiss thread.
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Old March 1st, 2014, 06:03 PM   #2340
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Such an arrangement in addition to connecting all major Swiss cities would also allow through traffic from Germany to Geneva and onwards to France and from France to Italy via Switzerland.
Actually Paris - Milano already is quite fast via Switzerland. It should be possible to run a Paris - Lausanne - Milano train at a timing that is faster than the current Paris - Milano route via the Mont - Cenis.

SBB wants to speed up the Rhone line East of Lausanne. Between Geneve and Lausanne the emphasis is currently on increasing capacity (and rightly so).

A new Geneve - Bern line ( would have to avoid Lausanne probably) could be interesting as part of a Lyon - Geneve - Zürich - München corridor. Zürich - München really needs an upgrade. And a then a new line from München to Praha, and an improvement on München - Wien and we would have a nice new transversal European axis...
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