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Old March 11th, 2014, 06:53 AM   #2361
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Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL.

TGV 9702 Barcelona Sants-Paris Gare de Lyon, on March/04/2014.

Image taken near Sils (between Barcelona and Girona):

Quote:
Originally Posted by voltrega62 View Post
image hosted on flickr
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Old April 6th, 2014, 07:15 PM   #2362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Not a worse service. I mean, having all the current international services which currently start and end in Barcelona could be enlarged to Madrid too. It would mean, supposedly, a better service. But actually, which is the sense of enlarging the Marseille service and not the Toulouse or the Lyon train. They have researched about the people who are travelling between Madrid and Avignon, Aix and Marseille and they are more than people who are traveling between Madrid and Toulouse or Lyon? I am not sure. What I say is just that the fact of includying Madrid in the offer is mostly political and not practical. Currently, whithout a high speed line in Souther France between Perpignan and Nimes, travel times from Madrid to French destinations are not that good, except maybe Perpignan, Narbonne or Montpellier at most...

Do you understand what I wanna say?
Yes, I do, but according to that, passengers from the Spanish Alvia services between Gijón and Alicante or Cadiz should also be in very small numbers.
But no one seems to discuss their existence. Why should the Madrid-France services be discussed then? After all, those are entirely new services.

==========================================================================================

Stats, according to this article from El País:

According to the article, around 146,000 people have used the new AVE/TGV services between Spain and France since they entered service.
According to the article, more than 50% of the passengers are French.

Most used routes, between December 2013 and March 2014:

Barcelona-Paris------------------130,000 passengers
Barcelona-Montpellier------------15,600 passengers
Barcelona-Narbonne---------------8,000 passengers
Barcelona-Toulouse----------------8,000 passengers
Barcelona-Marseille----------------4,800 passengers
Figueres-Paris----------------------4,300 passengers
Girona-Paris------------------------2,500 passengers
Madrid-Montpellier-----------------1,400 passengers
Madrid-Perpignan------------------1,100 passengers
Girona-Perpignan--------------------820 passengers
Madrid-Marseille---------------------600 passengers
Girona-Marseille---------------------400 passengers

No stats about Lyon (), Valence, Nimes, Avignon, Aix-en-Provence, Carcassonne.

==============================================================================

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Of course, but isn't Marseille-Madrid train also used for domestic traffic between Barcelona and Madrid? If so then it's probably less reliable than all the others which don't use French classical lines. That's what I wanted to say with my previous post...
But the AVE Marseille-Madrid, for inner Spanish trips (Madrid-Barcelona, not sure about Girona and Figueres though), is cheaper than the non-stop Barcelona-Madrid services.

==============================================================================

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Hmmmm, do you think that Madrid-Paris would get a good performance even with the current travel times?
Not now, at least not until the Nimes-Montpellier HSL is open (and even in that case it will keep on being a very long travel time, and moreover, Lyon won´t be useful, else danger of breaking the Schedule on the Paris-Lyon HSL).

==============================================================================

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I am a bit surprised that Barcelona-Paris services are dominating to such an extent. Looks like no one cares about going to those "2nd tier" French cities
I´m not all that surprised (but that´s mainly because of the French, who are more used to naturally travel by train -the TGV in particular).

Two big cities, the first and fourth most touristic ones in Europe, two important business centres, two important airports, two important interchange for other lines...

And also a travel time which, while still rather long, ít isn´t much longer tan other well-established TGV routes, such as Paris-Tarbes, Paris-Toulouse or Paris-Nice, which all are much smaller cities than Barcelona.

So it´s not much of a surprise, and if we add to that the fact that there always was a direct night train, you get the answer.

As for the other destinations (I´m missing much the numbers for places like Valence, Carcassonne, Avignon and Lyon, the latter in particular), if you take out Montpellier, Narbonne and Perpignan, which are also well-established routes, the others are all entirely new routes.

I´m really looking forward for the restart of a direct Barcelona-Geneva service, since that one was also well-established, day and night, and it´s much missed by the Swiss, it seems. We´ll see what happens with that one once the reelectrification works between Bellegarde and Geneva-Cornavin are finished.
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Old April 6th, 2014, 07:18 PM   #2363
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Yes (message under construction, hang on).
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Old April 6th, 2014, 07:40 PM   #2364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001
Yes (message under construction, hang on).
Fixed!! post above the last one

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Old April 6th, 2014, 07:46 PM   #2365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
That's France... Paris.... and the rest of the country...
Size matters too.
Besides, I´m surprised by the Toulouse route.
With only one train per day it gets only a little more than half the passengers that Montpellier gets with five trains.
So perhaps this should be a hint to both Renfe and Sncf... I mean, Bordeaux, of course...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Anyway, I would be interested in the Barcelona-Lyon travellers stats.
Me too. Strange that they left Lyon out.
I doubt that the numbers are that bad that they preferred to leave Lyon out of the stats issue, it´s Lyon, they can´t be that bad...
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Old April 6th, 2014, 07:52 PM   #2366
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Yes, I do, but according to that, passengers from the Spanish Alvia services between Gijón and Alicante or Cadiz should also be in very small numbers.
But no one seems to discuss their existence. Why should the Madrid-France services be discussed then? After all, those are entirely new services.
Yes, for sure, this kind of diametral or really long services are useful, but mosty for intermediate cities and travellers. It means: the Madrid-Marseille train is more useful for trips like Madrid-Barcelona, Madrid-Girona, Madrid-Figueres, Barcelona-Girona, Barcelona-Montpellier, etc. If they called at Zaragoza or Tarragona, it would be even better,.

Almost the same level of quality in the service would be possible with a train between Madrid and Girona.

Anyway, it is fair. I don't mind having international trains calling at Madrid, even if they are not too used.
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Old April 6th, 2014, 08:00 PM   #2367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Yes, for sure, this kind of diametral or really long services are useful, but mosty for intermediate cities and travellers. It means: the Madrid-Marseille train is more useful for trips like Madrid-Barcelona, Madrid-Girona, Madrid-Figueres, Barcelona-Girona, Barcelona-Montpellier, etc. If they called at Zaragoza or Tarragona, it would be even better,.

Almost the same level of quality in the service would be possible with a train between Madrid and Girona.
Actually, and not wanting to sound too arrogant, I think that calling at Camp de Tarragona would bring a number of new international passengers to the train, I´m thinking about the holidays, but not only (both Marseille and Tarragona are two very important chemical poles, and they are two ports of some size, too).
So there will be some business travels, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Anyway, it is fair. I don't mind having international trains calling at Madrid, even if they are not too used.
I think they´re not too used yet. People will get used to them with time, I hope.
Let´s not forget that rail travel to/from Spain has been rather horrendous till last Christmas...
Easter and Summer holidays will be an important test.
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Old April 6th, 2014, 08:01 PM   #2368
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Size matters too.
Besides, I´m surprised by the Toulouse route.
With only one train per day it gets only a little more than half the passengers that Montpellier gets with five trains.
So perhaps this should be a hint to both Renfe and Sncf... I mean, Bordeaux, of course...
Size matters, that's true; but business, culture, politics, etc are really focused on Paris; and apparently it affects the way travellers move on TGV, even fro Barcelona. That's true, anyway, that Barcelona-Paris train is a historic route, and not as new as the others.

And yes, increasing trains to Toulouse, and even enlarging them to Bordeaux would be really positive. At least, I think so.
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Old April 6th, 2014, 08:06 PM   #2369
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Actually, and not wanting to sound too arrogant, I think that calling at Camp de Tarragona would bring a number of new international passengers to the train, I´m thinking about the holidays, but not only (both Marseille and Tarragona are two very important chemical poles, and they are two ports of some size, too).
So they will be some business travels.
Tarragona, and probably when the Mediterranean Corridor will be adapted to UIC gauge, more and more services will move international travellers to the Eastern Spanish coast.
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Old April 6th, 2014, 08:14 PM   #2370
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Barcelona-Lyon services could be extended to Geneva. Swiss are used to train travel and Barcelona is among the more popular travel destinations. A service like this is in plans, isn't it?
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Old April 6th, 2014, 08:50 PM   #2371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Size matters, that's true; but business, culture, politics, etc are really focused on Paris; and apparently it affects the way travellers move on TGV, even fro Barcelona. That's true, anyway, that Barcelona-Paris train is a historic route, and not as new as the others.
That´s the point, the Marseille to Madrid route is a new route, the Paris to Barcelona isn´t.

For more than 100 years, rail travel to Spain has been long and painful, so many people have never even bothered to use the rail (a bit like Spain with Portugal, come to think of it).

So I guess that these kind of routes will take some more time than other international routes to establish themselves.

It´s a very different case than the Eurostar, since the distances between London and Paris, and between London and Brussels, are ideal for HSR, while in the case of the France/Spain new routes, the HSL isn´t finished yet on the French side, and the cities in between, while surely they will feed a crucial number of passengers, they aren´t really that big (not even Lyon or Marseille are).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
And yes, increasing trains to Toulouse, and even enlarging them to Bordeaux would be really positive. At least, I think so.
That should have been the goal, and I suspect that the only thing that has kept it from being extended till Bordeaux has been Renfe.

The way the line is between Narbonne and Bordeaux, with a classic line and no HSL under construction in the coming years, it could have given some trouble to Renfe, since that kind of route in Spain falls more into the Alvia category, never AVE.

Otherwise, linking Barcelona to the two most important cities in SW France all in one go would have been quite interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Tarragona, and probably when the Mediterranean Corridor will be adapted to UIC gauge, more and more services will move international travellers to the Eastern Spanish coast.
Attention, south of Tarragona the line will be re-gauged to standard, but the tension (3 kV DC) will be kept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Barcelona-Lyon services could be extended to Geneva. Swiss are used to train travel and Barcelona is among the more popular travel destinations. A service like this is in plans, isn't it?
It is indeed, and what has kept it from being created is the re-electrification of the international section between Bellegarde and Geneva-Cornavin (they´re changing it from 1,5 kV DC to 25 kV AC).

I guess it will bring a good number of passengers since day one, as now there is no direct rail link between Spain and Switzerland.
That, plus Lyon, plus Montpellier, should largely suffice for the route.

The only question mark is that I read somewhere that the Barcelona-Geneva route would be a TGV-Lyria service, not a Renfe/Sncf one.
Is there any Swiss forumer out there with info about the matter? If so, thanks indeed.
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Old April 6th, 2014, 08:56 PM   #2372
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Attention, south of Tarragona the line will be re-gauged to standard, but the tension (3 kV DC) will be kept.
Yes, I know. Anyway, more trains will be needed for offering more international services. I have no idea about it, but at some point, if more Renfe 100 series are modified and adapted for running on France, I don't know if installing 1,5kV, 3kV and 25kV equipments inside the same train would be possible. Probably it is, as TGV Réseau and Thalys PBA are able to run on three different tensions and I think equipments for 1,5kV and 3kV are not that different.
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Old April 6th, 2014, 09:05 PM   #2373
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Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Yes, I know. Anyway, more trains will be needed for offering more international services. I have no idea about it, but at some point, if more Renfe 100 series are modified and adapted for running on France, I don't know if installing 1,5kV, 3kV and 25kV equipments inside the same train would be possible. Probably it is, as TGV Réseau and Thalys PBA are able to run on three different tensions and I think equipments for 1,5kV and 3kV are not that different.
I´m suspecting that sooner than later all of the class 100 AVEs will become bi-tension, plus some new trains.
And these new trains could well be Alstom´s AGV (you get my point, I take it... ).
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Old April 6th, 2014, 09:10 PM   #2374
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I´m suspecting that sooner than later all of the class 100 AVEs will become bi-tension, plus some new trains.
And these new trains could well be Alstom´s AGV (you get my point, I take it... ).


I know what you mean, no worries. And you know my opinion...

However, you don't think it would be possible transforming Renfe 100 series into tri-tension trains?
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Old April 6th, 2014, 09:40 PM   #2375
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However, you don't think it would be possible transforming Renfe 100 series into tri-tension trains?
It´s not impossible, but they´re getting older.
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Old April 7th, 2014, 05:39 PM   #2376
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Quote:
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The only question mark is that I read somewhere that the Barcelona-Geneva route would be a TGV-Lyria service, not a Renfe/Sncf one.
Most probably the current service to Montpellier will be extended to Barcelona, which means that it will be run using TGV Dasye sets, just like the other SNCF services, with Lyria brand used only in the communication with passengers from Switzerland...
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Old April 7th, 2014, 05:44 PM   #2377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Yes, I know. Anyway, more trains will be needed for offering more international services. I have no idea about it, but at some point, if more Renfe 100 series are modified and adapted for running on France, I don't know if installing 1,5kV, 3kV and 25kV equipments inside the same train would be possible. Probably it is, as TGV Réseau and Thalys PBA are able to run on three different tensions and I think equipments for 1,5kV and 3kV are not that different.
It depends. Running under different AC voltages is not that hard, as all you need is an extra tap on the transformer. However a 50Hz transformer is less efficient under 16.6 Hz, so available power is lower. Unless you install a heavier transformer, as is currently more or less standard for AC locomotives.
However, DC can't be that easily transformed. So in most cases, in order to run under both 3kV and 1,5 kV DC some more complex switching is needed. Often it's done by putting motors pairwise in series under 3kV, and all in parallel under 1,5 kV. Not really easy to retrofit...
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Old April 7th, 2014, 06:54 PM   #2378
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Oops! I made a mistake. What I posted was this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Stats, according to this article from El País:

According to the article, around 146,000 people have used the new AVE/TGV services between Spain and France since they entered service.
According to the article, more than 50% of the passengers are French.

Most used routes, between December 2013 and March 2014:

Barcelona-Paris------------------130,000 passengers
Barcelona-Montpellier------------15,600 passengers
Barcelona-Narbonne---------------8,000 passengers
Barcelona-Toulouse----------------8,000 passengers
Barcelona-Marseille----------------4,800 passengers
Figueres-Paris----------------------4,300 passengers
Girona-Paris------------------------2,500 passengers
Madrid-Montpellier-----------------1,400 passengers
Madrid-Perpignan------------------1,100 passengers
Girona-Perpignan--------------------820 passengers
Madrid-Marseille---------------------600 passengers
Girona-Marseille---------------------400 passengers

No stats about Lyon (), Valence, Nimes, Avignon, Aix-en-Provence, Carcassonne.
In the post I quote , I posted this below, which was a mistake:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Barcelona-Paris------------------130,000 passengers
The correct numbers are thus:

Most used routes, between December 2013 and March 2014:

Barcelona-Paris----------------28,000 passengers
Barcelona-Perpignan----------21,000 passengers
Barcelona-Montpellier------------15,600 passengers
Barcelona-Narbonne---------------8,000 passengers
Barcelona-Toulouse----------------8,000 passengers
Barcelona-Marseille----------------4,800 passengers
Figueres-Paris----------------------4,300 passengers
Girona-Paris------------------------2,500 passengers
Figueres-Perpignan------------2,100 passengers
Madrid-Montpellier-----------------1,400 passengers
Madrid-Perpignan------------------1,100 passengers
Girona-Perpignan--------------------820 passengers
Madrid-Marseille---------------------600 passengers
Girona-Marseille---------------------400 passengers

Still no stats about Lyon, Valence, Aix-en-Provence, Avignon, Nimes, Beziers, and Carcassonne...
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Old April 7th, 2014, 07:18 PM   #2379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Most probably the current service to Montpellier will be extended to Barcelona, which means that it will be run using TGV Dasye sets, just like the other SNCF services, with Lyria brand used only in the communication with passengers from Switzerland...
Do you mean "from Switzerland", but not "to Switzerland"?
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Old April 7th, 2014, 07:31 PM   #2380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Oops! I made a mistake. What I posted was this:



In the post I quote , I posted this below, which was a mistake:



The correct numbers are thus:

Most used routes, between December 2013 and March 2014:

Barcelona-Paris----------------28,000 passengers
Barcelona-Perpignan----------21,000 passengers
Barcelona-Montpellier------------15,600 passengers
Barcelona-Narbonne---------------8,000 passengers
Barcelona-Toulouse----------------8,000 passengers
Barcelona-Marseille----------------4,800 passengers
Figueres-Paris----------------------4,300 passengers
Girona-Paris------------------------2,500 passengers
Figueres-Perpignan------------2,100 passengers
Madrid-Montpellier-----------------1,400 passengers
Madrid-Perpignan------------------1,100 passengers
Girona-Perpignan--------------------820 passengers
Madrid-Marseille---------------------600 passengers
Girona-Marseille---------------------400 passengers

Still no stats about Lyon, Valence, Aix-en-Provence, Avignon, Nimes, Beziers, and Carcassonne...
OK. Thank you for the correction.

So, not such a big difference in the case of Paris.
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