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Old September 24th, 2014, 08:20 PM   #2681
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
I agree. I think DB together with SNCF, NMBS and NS should make legal procedures to make that happen. A whole new world of European rail travel will open then...
While I agree that something needs to be done, taking out legal procedures against the UK because we have boarder checks is a ridiculous idea. The UK is complying with the forth rail package by starting to progress with ERTMS and it already has its train operations and infrastructure opertors separate. And I think your over estimating track capacity into St Pancras as well as journey times, would someone really want to travel for over 6 hours to reach Spain when they can get there a lot quicker and cheaper with easy jet for example?
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Old September 24th, 2014, 08:25 PM   #2682
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Nobody is saying anything about the UK doing border checks. But in order of doing so, I believe the UK should use its own infrastructure, rather than seriously disrupting rail travel in Schengen.
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Old September 24th, 2014, 10:02 PM   #2683
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Originally Posted by Manchester77 View Post
While I agree that something needs to be done, taking out legal procedures against the UK because we have boarder checks is a ridiculous idea. The UK is complying with the forth rail package by starting to progress with ERTMS and it already has its train operations and infrastructure opertors separate. And I think your over estimating track capacity into St Pancras as well as journey times, would someone really want to travel for over 6 hours to reach Spain when they can get there a lot quicker and cheaper with easy jet for example?
I would anytime. I travel Switzerland -UK by train as well, and would love a direct train.
There is a market for such trains, but only if border controls are indeed moved to st Pancras.
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Old September 24th, 2014, 10:25 PM   #2684
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I would anytime. I travel Switzerland -UK by train as well, and would love a direct train.
There is a market for such trains, but only if border controls are indeed moved to st Pancras.
St Pancras cannot physically cope with dealing with all immigration coming into the UK, immigration at St Pancras is in the former goods celars as far as I know which are constrained by the listed structure of the Balow building and the London Underground beneath.
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Old September 24th, 2014, 10:32 PM   #2685
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That's still the UK's problem. Not the problem of Schengen countries.
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Old September 24th, 2014, 10:35 PM   #2686
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That's still the UK's problem. Not the problem of Schengen countries.
So how do you expect checks to occur at our end if we're restricted by a central station which is listed?
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Old September 24th, 2014, 10:54 PM   #2687
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Because they are British checks. If you want you can have the train stopping at Ashford for 90 minutes rather than playing silly ****ers at Lille or Brussels. Don't use our infrastructure, disrupting our TGV services only because you're bringing God Save The Queen on Schengen soil...
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Old September 24th, 2014, 11:23 PM   #2688
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Because they are British checks. If you want you can have the train stopping at Ashford for 90 minutes rather than playing silly ****ers at Lille or Brussels. Don't use our infrastructure, disrupting our TGV services only because you're bringing God Save The Queen on Schengen soil...
What's the equivalent to Godwin's Law when it involves the UK and the Monarchy?! (I'd like to add that not every single person in the UK supports the monarchy, many believe they represent an archaic and undemocratic system of government and are jealous of the European republics. Just as I don't believe everyone on the continent wants to come over here please don't take it that the monarchy are relevant and supported by all.)

If you don't like us bringing international passengers, via a tunnel that continental Europe funded as well as us, then perhaps we should abandon running international passenger services between the UK and the continent if they take up too many TGV paths. That way we can have a decent number of platforms at St Pancras for Midland Main Line services allows an expansion of the future electric service. Joining schengen would only be feasible of Ireland wanted to as well so we don't have to create a boarder between NI and the RoI because of the schengen - non-schengen transition. It would require the entire CTA to agree to be absorbed into the schengen - and if you've been following politics over here recently the idea that immigration should be controlled much tighter is popular because people somehow believe it will solve our problems.
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Old September 24th, 2014, 11:35 PM   #2689
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A solution could be a much larger border station in Calais, optimized for border controls of trains that do not stop in Bruxelles, Lille, Paris or London.

So if they want to run a Manchester-Birmingham-Paris train, they could - with an added stop in Calais for border checks.
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Old September 25th, 2014, 01:24 AM   #2690
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Originally Posted by Manchester77 View Post
What's the equivalent to Godwin's Law when it involves the UK and the Monarchy?! (I'd like to add that not every single person in the UK supports the monarchy, many believe they represent an archaic and undemocratic system of government and are jealous of the European republics. Just as I don't believe everyone on the continent wants to come over here please don't take it that the monarchy are relevant and supported by all.)

If you don't like us bringing international passengers, via a tunnel that continental Europe funded as well as us, then perhaps we should abandon running international passenger services between the UK and the continent if they take up too many TGV paths. That way we can have a decent number of platforms at St Pancras for Midland Main Line services allows an expansion of the future electric service. Joining schengen would only be feasible of Ireland wanted to as well so we don't have to create a boarder between NI and the RoI because of the schengen - non-schengen transition. It would require the entire CTA to agree to be absorbed into the schengen - and if you've been following politics over here recently the idea that immigration should be controlled much tighter is popular because people somehow believe it will solve our problems.
I think that totally fails the point. The UK would not even have to join Shengen to put an end to this control madness that perverts the very idea of high speed rail (if you have to leave the train midway and wait for 90 min )

All the UK would have to do, is to modify its legislation on some excessive aspects. Every other country in Europe seems to be capable of checking the border onboard of the train or if that doesn't work, at the station of arrival. So it is beyond reason why such a system should be impossible for the UK. If you have laws making that impossible, you have political institutions capable of changing unreasonable laws.

I know, bashing foreigners and glorifying the gone iron curtain is currently popular all across Europe, but the UK would not give up any of its control efficiency. It would still have the checks, but with a much more straight forward system.
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Old September 25th, 2014, 02:00 AM   #2691
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All the UK would have to do, is to modify its legislation on some excessive aspects. Every other country in Europe seems to be capable of checking the border onboard of the train or if that doesn't work, at the station of arrival. So it is beyond reason why such a system should be impossible for the UK. If you have laws making that impossible, you have political institutions capable of changing unreasonable laws.

I know, bashing foreigners and glorifying the gone iron curtain is currently popular all across Europe, but the UK would not give up any of its control efficiency. It would still have the checks, but with a much more straight forward system.
As much as I'd like to see this the current political climate would mean that this would become political suicide. I can guarantee you that the daily Mail would be proclaiming that illegal immigrants will be able to roam free in the event of an emergancy stop. UKIP a will jump right on the issue, after all one of the EU election posters was telling us that millions of Romanians are set to take our jobs! For anything like this to happen you'd have to wait until UKIP have piped down and are back to being relatively irrelevant so that the Tories don't feel the need to compete with them for this kind of issue. Come 2020 I'd imagine that what you're proposing is far more realistic but you have to understand that this sort of thing is highly sensitive because of UKIP making it a big issue.

One thing that would have to make a come back is the little cell on eurostar trains which as far as I aware were removed during their last refurbishment. Their new 374s would need to cells installing too in case someone on board is found to not have the right documents etc.
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Old September 25th, 2014, 02:04 AM   #2692
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The latest 374s for EuroStar were delivered last night, I think this is the current fleet status:-
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4001/2 - Brussels Forest depot
4003/4 - Brussels Forest depot
4007/8 - Temple Mills
4011/12 - Temple Mills
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Old September 25th, 2014, 02:15 AM   #2693
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Originally Posted by Manchester77 View Post
As much as I'd like to see this the current political climate would mean that this would become political suicide. I can guarantee you that the daily Mail would be proclaiming that illegal immigrants will be able to roam free in the event of an emergancy stop. UKIP a will jump right on the issue, after all one of the EU election posters was telling us that millions of Romanians are set to take our jobs! For anything like this to happen you'd have to wait until UKIP have piped down and are back to being relatively irrelevant so that the Tories don't feel the need to compete with them for this kind of issue. Come 2020 I'd imagine that what you're proposing is far more realistic but you have to understand that this sort of thing is highly sensitive because of UKIP making it a big issue.

One thing that would have to make a come back is the little cell on eurostar trains which as far as I aware were removed during their last refurbishment. Their new 374s would need to cells installing too in case someone on board is found to not have the right documents etc.
You're bringing your internal problems to Europe. Don't. We don't want anything to do with it. Guard the British Isles in Britain, not in France or Belgium where they are trying to run a reliable high-speed service.
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Old September 25th, 2014, 09:13 AM   #2694
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You're bringing your internal problems to Europe. Don't. We don't want anything to do with it. Guard the British Isles in Britain, not in France or Belgium where they are trying to run a reliable high-speed service.
Your not getting my point, you cannot do what you propose because of the reprocussions, it's not simply internal issues its the truth of the issue
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Old September 25th, 2014, 11:51 AM   #2695
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Guys, let's keep our hats on.
1) It is true that the present xenophobic climate in European politics tends towards more, not less border control and that merging more countries into Schengen, even though I and many of us would very much wish for it to happen, is not going to happen anytime soon. No realistic suggestions for the near future for operating trains could take this as point of departure.
2) Actually though, this is not what was originally suggested in the thread above. It was suggested that UK border controls could adapt to the new services more flexibly. That certainly is a realistic option and there are several varieties for this.
- check all upon arrival in the UK and detain and deport possible visa-free travelers on trains (a slight increase in organisation and expenses)
- do passport checks on moving trains (might not satisfy border control freaks, but was quite efficient on trains in Central Europe before they joined Schengen; might necessitate obligatory stops in Lille and somewhere near tunnel in UK for border police to disembark)
- more offices for airport style entry checks in future destinations (probably the most expensive solution and biggest organisation needed)
Anyways 90 minutes "stopover" detained in some transit zone where one cannot even stroll around the town and having to line up with hundreds of other passengers simultaneously is definitely the stone age solution for the unnecessary border ritual. It makes me laugh that the Eurostar thus enters the same league as the Turkish/Bulgarian border stopovers as the longest and most passenger-unfriendly in Europe.
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Old September 25th, 2014, 11:57 AM   #2696
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Well, what's the point of having a high speed link between Marseille and London if the damn train is going to be sitting at Lille for 90 minutes...
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Old September 25th, 2014, 12:48 PM   #2697
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Joining schengen would only be feasible of Ireland wanted to as well so we don't have to create a boarder between NI and the RoI because of the schengen - non-schengen transition.
Ireland is not the problem here. Ireland only opted out of schengen because of the CTA and the UK's opt-out.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Treaty...and_to_Ireland
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The United Kingdom and Ireland may continue to make arrangements between themselves relating to the movement of persons between their territories (‘the Common Travel Area’), while fully respecting the rights of persons referred to in Article 1, first paragraph, point (a) of this Protocol. Accordingly, as long as they maintain such arrangements, the provisions of Article 1 of this Protocol shall apply to Ireland under the same terms and conditions as for the United Kingdom.
So as soon as the CTA is abolished Ireland's opt-out of schengen is no longer valid.
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Old September 25th, 2014, 12:48 PM   #2698
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Of course (to 90 minute stopover being a hopeless attempt).
Some more positive news: at INNOTRANS, SNCF and DB have ceremoniously signed a contract to prolong their collaboration on border-crossing ICE/TGV connections until 2020. As of spring 2016, with the inauguration of the missing link of the HSL to Strasbourg, one additional TGV or ICE will be running both between Paris and Frankfurt and Paris and Stuttgart. DB will finally be using their new generation ICE on that line. Services to Stuttgart will be 30 minutes faster and some of the ICEs from Frankfurt will run via Strasbourg and not Saarbrücken, saving 15 minutes in the process. Source in German http://dmm.travel/news/artikel/lesen...eration-62850/
Of course, this does not change the fact that SNCF and DB fight over Thalys, ICEs passing through the Channel Tunnel, the night train Berlin-Paris etc, but at least this one cooperation is running quite successfully.
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Last edited by Baron Hirsch; September 25th, 2014 at 01:36 PM.
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Old September 25th, 2014, 03:24 PM   #2699
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You're bringing your internal problems to Europe. Don't. We don't want anything to do with it.
Coming from Road_UK?
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Old September 25th, 2014, 03:30 PM   #2700
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Living in Schengen now
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