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Old December 12th, 2014, 01:31 PM   #2801
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Vertigo posted before me, but I saw the building site of the new Jerusalem station and that is very impressive. I did not know it would be that deep, but it will probably be the deepest non-metro station around.

At 43 meters there is the Vukov Spomenik train station in Belgrade, which is built as a mainline station but currently only services suburban trains. The international Bucharest-Belgrade train used to travel through but not stop during certain times...
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Old December 12th, 2014, 04:45 PM   #2802
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graouette View Post
I'm looking for examples of underground stations at more than 45 m in Europe
Miribilla in Bilbao is -50, but it is the case of a tunnel through a mountain with a station built inside of the tunnel. And it is only commuter trains.

http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Estaci...n_de_Miribilla

Last edited by gincan; December 12th, 2014 at 04:51 PM.
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 05:27 PM   #2803
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From the China HSR thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazySerb View Post
So it looks like the very first Chinese-led "HSR" project in Europe will be in Serbia/Hungary, connecting the capitals of Belgrade & Budapest.

Quote:
Belgrade-Budapest high-speed rail ready in 2017

17 December 2014

Serbia reached an agreement Tuesday with China for the construction of a high speed railway between Belgrade and Budapest.

Serbian Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic and Chinese Minister of Transport of the People's Republic of China Yang Chuantang met at the summit of government officials from China and countries in Central and Eastern Europe.

A statement released Tuesday said that Vucic and Chuantang had agreed on the details of the project including the timetable for research which is to be completed by June 2015, as well as on the means to finance the project and on the date for completing the project which is set for June 2017. Negotiations for the project began on Vucic's visit to the People's Republic of China in September 2014.
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/17...y-in-2017.html
Strictly speaking, at planned 200 km/h, it wouldn't be HSR, but it would be a very significant transport upgrade in South-Eastern Europe.

Belgrade-Budapest railway-related agreements signed

Quote:
Serbian Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic said that it was an important day for Serbia, which would contribute not only to the development of industry and railways, but also enable greater connectivity with Hungary, Macedonia, and far faster transportation of passengers and goods.

The Serbian prime minister said that the travel time would be shortened from eight to 2.4 hours and that the great infrastructure project would bring new jobs.

The Serbian prime minister thanked his counterparts for the understanding and cooperation they were showing, stressing that everything would be done to have the project realized in time and as soon as possible.

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban said that it was a lucky day for Hungary and that the project would enable the country to use the potentials of its "positive geographical position."

He said that the railway would prove of great importance to the countries of central and eastern Europe, adding that he was confident that cooperation between China and Europe was progressing.

Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski agrees that the railway is an important project for the region, Europe and China.

He expressed the hope that the faster transportation of goods and passengers the project was to bring would help the countries go forward. Official talks on the project to build a double-track railway for rolling stock that can travel at 200 km/h were started during the visit of Prime Minister of Serbia Aleksandar Vucic to the People's Republic of China in September this year.

As previously announced, the railway Corridor X constitutent branch Belgrade-Budapest will most likely be built through concession or through public-private partnerships.
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 05:32 PM   #2804
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Why are they bringing the Chinese into this? Money?
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 06:09 PM   #2805
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Why are they bringing the Chinese into this? Money?
Of course, what else? Serbia definitely can't afford standard Western financing for stuff like this on it's own. Hungary maybe could, but then route to Belgrade wouldn't be a priority.
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Old December 22nd, 2014, 07:37 PM   #2806
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a new or upgraded 200 km/h line built in three years?

Probably a big joke! It oder more than that
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 11:21 AM   #2807
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The interest of China (and Europe) is to get better trade links to Europe. China is investing in the port of Piraeus (Athens), a much closer port than Rotterdam or Hamburg, but through the relatively poor South-East Europe rather than the richer North-West.

Quote:
China wants Greek port of Piraeus to become its 'gateway to Europe'

Visiting Chinese Prime Minister Li Keqiang has said Greece's main port of Piraeus could become the Asian country's gateway to Europe. Beijing said it was interested in expanding its presence there in the years ahead.

Continuing his three-day tour of Greece, Chinese Premier Li Keqiang expressed his nation's interest in beefing up its presence in Greece's main port of Piraeus, as it would reduce "by between seven and 11 days the time it takes to transport Chinese exports to the European Union" and cut operational costs for firms.
The countries (and Europe) get a less miserable international rail (freight and people) link at presumably good conditions, from the country that has built a vast HSR network in no time. A Budapest-Beograd-Skopje-Athens line would complement the EU's TEN-T plan, which will develop the South-West as well, but through the EU countries of Romania and Bulgaria towards Istanbul.



Seen from China/Athens this line would be a significant shortcut. I found no map on the net, so I made a rough one of my own.

The short timeframe is a concern. China has built longer, faster lines in shorter time, but in Europe this two to three years is the time it takes just to get the first enviromental study. Chinese-European projects have suffered from cultural differences before, it could happen again.

On the other hand, while Li Keqiang has been somewhat sidelined by Xi Jingping, this is as high brass as you will get. It is not just some state-owned company with a blue sky idea for profit.
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 11:52 AM   #2808
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DB Schenker establishes new Europe hub in Greece
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 12:16 PM   #2809
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EU should keep a close eye on these Chinese-led project. Often they push, hard, to get variations of labor laws and regulations, allowing their building companies to operate as if they were in China, with Chinese workers, Chinese rules and Chinese wages. That shall not be tolerated within EU, and it is important to keep a close look as crisis-hit countries might be too tempted to look the other way.
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 12:40 PM   #2810
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I would presume this project would use a large amount of prefabricated elements, reducing labour costs. Labour issues is something that could derail (no pun intended) a project like this, and really should be cleared ahead of time. When the unions work against a complicated project like this it would be unlikely to succeed.
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 12:45 PM   #2811
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In Greece China has heavily invested in the Piraeus harbour and though there has been at the beginning the concerns Suburbanist raises, the majority of workers are local, aside from some senior management positions, the constructions have progressed without any significant legal challenges.

Labor treatment at the beginning was below the level the dock workers had been accustomed. Some have said that they were overprivileged compared to the average Greek (allegedly a crane operator could aspire up to €100,000 annually before the crisis and the crane crews consisted of 8 people compared to 4-5 in many other ports) but there were definitely violations of rights. There were no unions allowed for example. Now things have significantly improved, last year a union started operating and after a short strike there were many improvements in terms of working conditions, so I wouldn't say that the situation is much inferior to the Greek average.

So, alltogether the 4 years of the Chinese presence in Greece have left rather positive impressions, as the container traffic in the Pireaus port has increased το 3.7 millions annually. It would be interesting to see if they manage to pull off improvements in the rail network in Serbia, as the part of the network in Bulgaria that connects with the Greek network does not seem to be a priority for the EU or Bulgaria, creating a dissadvantage to our ports. At least it seems that the network in Greece between Pireaus and the borders will be in good shape by the end of 2016.

Last edited by gippas; December 23rd, 2014 at 05:10 PM.
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 03:38 PM   #2812
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Is there not any limits to how big ships can pass Suez canal? Without going through it Roterdam is closer to China.
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 03:52 PM   #2813
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The canal allows for the passage of ships with a draught of up to 20m so all the current range of container ships can easily pass through.
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 09:25 PM   #2814
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Yes, Suez is the largest canal world-wide, even the largest container ships in production can pass, only some bulk carriers and supertankers can't. However the port of Piraeus can't handle them anyway, I don't know if there is any plans or indeed need to support Triple E ships.

Land transport is faster, but also more expensive than sea transport. Even with rail infrastructure I wouldn't expect Piraeus to supply much further than Vienna.
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 11:39 PM   #2815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
Yes, Suez is the largest canal world-wide, even the largest container ships in production can pass, only some bulk carriers and supertankers can't. However the port of Piraeus can't handle them anyway, I don't know if there is any plans or indeed need to support Triple E ships.

Land transport is faster, but also more expensive than sea transport. Even with rail infrastructure I wouldn't expect Piraeus to supply much further than Vienna.
Actually Pireaus is supplying mostly Czech Republic, where many distribution centers and electronics eassembly plants that use Chinese components are apparently based.
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Old January 10th, 2015, 12:34 PM   #2816
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Old January 10th, 2015, 01:23 PM   #2817
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Quote:
High-speed railway to link Istanbul with Bulgaria

[IMG]http://oi61.************/63xi0k.jpg[/IMG]

Tnsportation, Communications and Maritime Affairs Minister Lütfi Elvan said that they want to strengthen the infrastructure link with neighboring countries; thus, Istanbul will be connected to the Kapıkule border gate (Bulgaria) with a high-speed railway line passing through Edirne. A tender will be held on this in 2015. Mega projects include the North Marmara Highway, the third bridge and railway lines that will pass over this bridge will be connected to this line. Elvan remarked that the highway link with Greece is also being strengthened and that railway links are being renewed completely, and indicated his expectation that Greece would strengthen its own railway.
http://www.dailysabah.com/money/2015...-with-bulgaria
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Old January 12th, 2015, 05:04 AM   #2818
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Hi everyone, I would like to know how if I want to travel from Rome to Amsterdam by train? Would there be any bullet trains on the route?

And how long would it normally take to travel?
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Old January 12th, 2015, 06:08 AM   #2819
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Well, well, I don't know about how long it would take (not to mention the cost), but you can indeed travel from Rome to Amsterdam only with high-speed rail/trains... Good luck though :

HSTs, option #1 (only in winter):
  • Rome -> Torino (P. Susa) by .Italo (100% high-speed)
  • Torino (P. Susa) -> Chambéry by TGV France-Italia (HST but on conventional rail)
  • Chambéry -> Amsterdam by Thalys seasonal service (100% high-speed from the Lyon Airport station to Amsterdam)

---

HSTs, option #2:
  • Rome -> Torino (P. Susa) by .Italo (100% high-speed)
  • Torino (P. Susa) -> Lyon (Saint-Exupéry Airport) by TGV France-Italia (HST but on conventional rail)
  • Lyon (Saint Exupéry Airport) -> Marne-la-Vallée (Disneyland) by OUIGO TGV (100% high-speed)
  • Marne-la-Vallée (Disneyland) -> Brussels (Midi/Zuid) by TGV Bruxelles-Province (100% high-speed)
  • Brussels (Midi/Zuid) -> Amsterdam by Thalys (100% high-speed)

HSTs, option #3:
  • Rome -> Torino (P. Susa) by .Italo (100% high-speed)
  • Torino (P. Susa) -> Paris (Gare de Lyon) by TGV France-Italia (100% high-speed from the Lyon Airport station to Paris)
  • Paris (Nord) -> Amsterdam by Thalys (100% high-speed)



PS: A direct Rome <-> Paris night train Thello service used to exist until last year but since then it has been removed unfortunately.
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Last edited by parcdesprinces; January 16th, 2015 at 01:24 PM.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 01:35 AM   #2820
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It would be interesting to see how many more intercountry links, involving large cities within the high speed feasible zone, have not yet been considered. I think Germany and its eastern neighbours particularly need to be looked at.
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