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Old February 13th, 2015, 07:17 AM   #2881
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Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
I agree that it will be a very long time before this tunnel is built. I certainly cannot see it get anyway near to being built before the entire Rail Baltica route, and I mean the full-twin track version of this route that will offer speeds of no less than 160kph, is complete.
I agree that the tunnel will depend a lot on Rail Baltica. I still hope Rail Baltica and the tunnel to Helsinki will come soon. There is actually a lot of freight moving in between Finland and EU and the amount will be rising. The companies need rail link to EU already today. Finns also plan to connect arctic sea with railway. The tunnel gives a benefit for whole region, Tallinn and Helsinki will be much closer and we will see regular commuters through the tunnel.
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Old February 13th, 2015, 07:23 AM   #2882
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Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
What gauge?

Both sides are 5' 0", but the Baltics are trying to go to standard, and there would be pressure for interchangeability.

Dual-gauge, maybe? Regardless, the loading gauge is going to be HUGE.
It will be standard gauge as it is connection to EU. Also it is not excluded that it will be dual gauge, should depend on the extra cost needed for that.
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Old February 13th, 2015, 09:21 AM   #2883
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Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
Having in mind that today's longest tunnel under the sea is 38 km, building a 50km long tunnel under the sea is a challenge.
Isn't Seikan Tunnel 54 km long ?
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Old February 13th, 2015, 10:01 AM   #2884
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Originally Posted by ArtManDoo View Post
Also it is not excluded that it will be dual gauge, should depend on the extra cost needed for that.
Making the tunnel dual gauge would be an excellent idea and I'm sure that this will happen.
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Old February 13th, 2015, 10:46 AM   #2885
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
The crossing is 45 minutes so they can get off the train if they wish and have a stroll on the deck or go for a coffee or meal in the restaurant area.
Correction, no one is allowed on the car deck during the crossing so you actually have to leave the train.
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Old February 13th, 2015, 11:10 AM   #2886
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Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Do you get this feeling going through mountains?
I havent felt any discomfort travelling through long tunnels in mountains (like in the Alps),
whereas the railways are built on flat ground. I only have experienced a slightly impaired oxygen level.



Traveling in the chunnel is almost as unpleasant as flying. The train rapidly descends and rises which causes sudden changes in air pressure,
so you get pain in your ears and a headache. Also you experience poorer air quality in the chunnel, clearly less oxygene and a certain moist in the air.

As a train passenger I prefer crossing a scenic bridge instead of going through a tunnel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Isn't Seikan Tunnel 54 km long ?
Yes in total , but 23km under the sea.


The Chunnel is 50km (38km under sea). The Seikan 54km (23 km under sea)

The proposed Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel would be longer than both the Chunnel and the Seikan tunnel. At least 70km in which of 50km would be under the sea-level.
Construction costs, surveillance, maintennance and risk factors are still too big obstacles in order to implement this project in an area by far less populated than UK/France & Japan.

Maybe they will build a floating tunnel like they have in Norway?
(so a russian submarine could crash into it )

Realistic link-projects in the Nordic countries are considered to be the Öresund Bridge, Store Bält bridge and the future Fehmarn connection, mainly because of the moderate distance of 15-20km.
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Old February 13th, 2015, 11:13 AM   #2887
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Originally Posted by bongo-anders View Post
Correction, no one is allowed on the car deck during the crossing so you actually have to leave the train.
Yes and you have to leave it in a hurry, the conductors are quite stressed out about having the passengers to exit the train.
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Old February 13th, 2015, 11:39 AM   #2888
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Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
This loco only runs from Brenner towards Verona. On the Austrian side a class 1116 is used as the 1216s are not equipped with ETCS, which is required for the Austrian section. This is due to the fact that the Italians would demand a re-certification of the 1216 if ETCS is installed. A loco that is already certified...

Moronic...
No it's not not. I see them at Munich AND Jenbach AND Innsbruck all the time.
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Old February 13th, 2015, 12:24 PM   #2889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
The proposed Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel would be longer than both the Chunnel and the Seikan tunnel. At least 70km in which of 50km would be under the sea-level.
Construction costs, surveillance, maintennance and risk factors are still too big obstacles in order to implement this project in an area by far less populated than UK/France & Japan.

Maybe they will build a floating tunnel like they have in Norway?
(so a russian submarine could crash into it )

Realistic link-projects in the Nordic countries are considered to be the Öresund Bridge, Store Bält bridge and the future Fehmarn connection, mainly because of the moderate distance of 15-20km.
Now there will be started a more detailed study that will clarify a lot.

Average depth for Gulf of Finland is 38m
Average depth for English Channel is 45m (Dover - Chalais part)

Very stable granite under the Gulf of Finland should make it possible for Talsinki Fix go not as deep as the Channel is, then also the gradients should not be very deep. The other thing is that English Channel doesn't have any islands over the are where Channel goes. In the other hand there are islands in Gulf of Finland big enough to bring ventilation and evacuation shafts onto them, longest distance between shafts would be about 30km.

Floating panorama tunnel would be something exotic that the whole world will go to see
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Old February 13th, 2015, 12:26 PM   #2890
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About the freight there is a lot of potential traffic for tunnel and Rail Baltica.

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Old February 13th, 2015, 01:59 PM   #2891
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
No it's not not. I see them at Munich AND Jenbach AND Innsbruck all the time.
I just checked again and you are right. By now there are enough 1216.0 fitted with ETCS to run all the way from München to Verona.
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Old February 13th, 2015, 06:54 PM   #2892
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Originally Posted by ArtManDoo View Post
About the freight there is a lot of potential traffic for tunnel and Rail Baltica.
What about the comparison of costs? Isn't the sea shipping a bit cheaper?
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Old February 13th, 2015, 07:56 PM   #2893
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What about the comparison of costs? Isn't the sea shipping a bit cheaper?
It can be but it's also slower. Also the decisions that logisitcs companies make when it comes to the choice of transport mode are sometimes taking into consideration other factors beyond the basic 'cost' of any particular mode.

You will see, for example, that while many semi-trailers are transported by ferry between the North German ferry ports and various Scandinavian ports, there are now several intermodal trains operating between Scandinavia and Germany, and beyond, carrying the very same semi-trailers.

Samskip is a good company to look at for research into this area.

And in fact, just today there has been an announcement that a train will operate between Halmstad and Lubeck for the semi-trailers of Spedition Bode - this being the same Lubeck which is not exactly short of efficient ferry links with Sweden.
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Old February 13th, 2015, 08:41 PM   #2894
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Last edited by Slartibartfas; February 13th, 2015 at 08:57 PM.
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Old February 13th, 2015, 08:52 PM   #2895
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Is Roedby-Puttgarden the only train ferry left in Europe?
As far I know:

*Roedby-Puttgarden as you said
*Villa San Giovanni - Messina (continent to Sicily)
*Villa San Giovanni/Messina - Golfo Aranci (European network to Sardinia, not used by regular traffic anymore, just to move rail vehicles to/from workshops, Civitavecchia dock where once regular ferries went is no more in operation)
*from Sassnitz to Trelleborg (Malmoe-Copenaghen_Express and some freight) and some Russian ports (one near St. Petersburg)
*Stockholm-Turku (where standard gauge tracks are apparently called "Little Sweden")
*some with various routes in the Black Sea
*to cross the Bosphorus until the opening of the Marmaray
*across Kerch strait connecting Crimea directly with Russia

The only ones with regular passenger traffic are Roedby-Puttgarden, Continent-Sicily and Sassnitz-Trelleborg (this latter with the already said infrequent, but timetabled, service). Maybe also the Kerch strait ferry.

This one is likely dead, but still appears on Google Maps: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Marsei...ancia&t=h&z=19
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Old February 13th, 2015, 09:26 PM   #2896
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
As far I know:


*Stockholm-Turku (where standard gauge tracks are apparently called "Little Sweden")
Hasn't this service now come to an end? I think it has.
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Old February 13th, 2015, 09:30 PM   #2897
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In 10 years Villa San Giovanni-Messina will be the only service remaining.
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Old February 13th, 2015, 10:09 PM   #2898
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In 10 years Villa San Giovanni-Messina will be the only service remaining.
Why do you say that?

In ten years time I don't see any reason why, for example, the Black See train ferry services will not be operating.
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Old February 13th, 2015, 10:16 PM   #2899
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Bosphorus service is temporary and I expect there will be a bridge accross the Kerch straight. The rest I just don't see as viable long term...
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Old February 13th, 2015, 11:24 PM   #2900
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To clarify: the traditional freight train ferry across the Bosporus has been closed since the beginning of Marmaray reconstruction of former rail access lines (a few years now). What only started recently and will not disappear anytime soon is freight transport across the Marmara Sea between Bandirma and Tekirdag: the Tekirdag rail link is brand new and is being used for container transports between Western Anatolia and Central Europe. Someday there might be a bridge over the Dardanelles which could prove more convenient, but this is not so soon.
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