daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old June 3rd, 2015, 03:03 PM   #3021
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,886
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
Only if you consider HSR the only train option these days. That of course is not the case. Paris is better connected to Western Europe, while Vienna trumps Paris in Central Europe.
This is a rather unqualified remark. Paris beats Wien by a country-mile not because we consider just one part of the railway network but because of the entirety of the railway networks in France and its neighbouring countries is technologically advanced. And the only reason why Vienna has quicker connections to most places in central Europe is because it is located there. But towns like Ulm, Fulda, Erfurt and even Bregenz are already closer to Paris than to Wien.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter999 View Post
I guess Frankfurt/Main is even better connected than both Paris or Vienna.
Frankfurt/M may be better connected than Wien but certainly not better than Paris. One is simply quicker in Amsterdam, Brussels and Milano from Paris than from Frankfurt/M.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old June 3rd, 2015, 09:56 PM   #3022
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,039
Likes (Received): 8718

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
This is a rather unqualified remark. Paris beats Wien by a country-mile not because we consider just one part of the railway network but because of the entirety of the railway networks in France and its neighbouring countries is technologically advanced. And the only reason why Vienna has quicker connections to most places in central Europe is because it is located there. But towns like Ulm, Fulda, Erfurt and even Bregenz are already closer to Paris than to Wien.
And how does this remark even remotely counter my argument that Wien is better connected to central Europe? You picked towns that happend to be half way between Wien and Paris where Paris is better connected. Well lets take Munich and you'll see Vienna better connected by a country mile, or Augsburg and Nürnberg. Don't even get me started with all the capitals in eastern central Europe. If we take your point of view further we will come to the conclusion that Madrid would then be the best connected city of Europe. It just happens to be nowhere near places abroad worth connecting, but the quality of the rail network trumps all the others.
__________________
Europa per gli europei
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 01:10 AM   #3023
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,886
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
And how does this remark even remotely counter my argument that Wien is better connected to central Europe? You picked towns that happend to be half way between Wien and Paris where Paris is better connected. Well lets take Munich and you'll see Vienna better connected by a country mile, or Augsburg and Nürnberg. Don't even get me started with all the capitals in eastern central Europe. If we take your point of view further we will come to the conclusion that Madrid would then be the best connected city of Europe. It just happens to be nowhere near places abroad worth connecting, but the quality of the rail network trumps all the others.
Your argument has already been countered by the isochrone charts that have been linked in this thread. These graphics show distinctly the relative isolation of Wien from where only one fairly fast railway line radiates. On the other side there a city like Paris whose high-speed tentacles reach out in every direction and connect the city quickly to a fairly large area. But Paris is not only better connected to a larger part of Europe than Wien. It is incidentally the more important part of the continent as well.

As for being midway between those cities. All towns I mentioned are geographically closer to Wien but have faster connection to Paris. These are the facts. And they speak volumes in favour of Paris.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 03:50 AM   #3024
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,039
Likes (Received): 8718

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Your argument has already been countered by the isochrone charts that have been linked in this thread. These graphics show distinctly the relative isolation of Wien from where only one fairly fast railway line radiates. On the other side there a city like Paris whose high-speed tentacles reach out in every direction and connect the city quickly to a fairly large area. But Paris is not only better connected to a larger part of Europe than Wien. It is incidentally the more important part of the continent as well.

As for being midway between those cities. All towns I mentioned are geographically closer to Wien but have faster connection to Paris. These are the facts. And they speak volumes in favour of Paris.
Nope, those graphs only show travel times and nothing else. It says absolutely nothing about the connections available. Vienna is directly connected to every capital (forget about Bern) in Central Europe and additionally to that the capitals of Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Romania, Russia and Italy. Therfore no, Paris does not cover a greater area, but one that is significantly smaller, but within those borders travel time is indeed faster.
__________________
Europa per gli europei
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 12:59 PM   #3025
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Frankfurt/M may be better connected than Wien but certainly not better than Paris. One is simply quicker in Amsterdam, Brussels and Milano from Paris than from Frankfurt/M.
This is not interily correct. For example trip times from Frankfurt to Milano are the same as from Paris to Milano, but you have more options on Frankfurt - Milano then on Paris - Milano.

The thing the isochrone maps are missing, is that it is not area that matters, but population. The purpose of travel is usually to meet other people. And so what matters is not how many square km you can reach from a place but how many destinations that that are actually useful. One way to for example quantify how wel a place is connected is to look at how many urban areas of a particular size one can reach within a certain time.
How often a train runs is also important. A city pair that has a train every hour that takes 2 hours is better connected then one that has only a few trains a day, that take only 1 hour.

The structure of a country matters too. These are the urban areas in France with more than one million people:

Lille
Lyon
Marseille
Nice
Paris

Now from Paris you can reach Lille in a bit over an hour, Lyon in a bit under two hours, Marseille in 3 1/2 hours and Nice in 5 1/2 hours.

And these are the urban areas with more than one million inhabitants in Germany:

Berlin
Bremen
Frankfurt
Hamburg
Munich
Nuremberg
Düsseldorf
Cologne
Ruhr area
Saarbrücken
Stuttgart

Now from Frankfurt you can reach 3 of those in under 2 hours, 3 more in under three hours, 3 in under 4 hours, and one (Berlin) in just over 4 hours. And in each case you have a train every hour.

So it would appear at first glance that Frankfurt is better connected to Germany than Paris is to France... But of course this has everything to do with geography...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 01:09 PM   #3026
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
As for being midway between those cities. All towns I mentioned are geographically closer to Wien but have faster connection to Paris. These are the facts. And they speak volumes in favour of Paris.
It wouldn't be surprised that every place that is halfway between Paris and Vienna has more trains to Vienna then to Paris...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 02:54 PM   #3027
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,090
Likes (Received): 4752

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
Nope, those graphs only show travel times and nothing else. It says absolutely nothing about the connections available. Vienna is directly connected to every capital (forget about Bern) in Central Europe and additionally to that the capitals of Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Romania, Russia and Italy. Therfore no, Paris does not cover a greater area, but one that is significantly smaller, but within those borders travel time is indeed faster.
So that map doesn't take into account waiting times? For example, if I wanna go from Ljubljana to Bratislava, I have to change train in Vienna. Does the map take into account the waiting time in Vienna, or it assumes that I can immediately continue to Bratislava?
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 03:37 PM   #3028
Baron Hirsch
Kara Tren Solcusu
 
Baron Hirsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin/Istanbul
Posts: 1,337
Likes (Received): 475

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
It wouldn't be surprised that every place that is halfway between Paris and Vienna has more trains to Vienna then to Paris...
Oh K, your naive belief that the turtle always beats the rabbit. But unfortunately no. Take Stuttgart: 534 km as the bird flies from Vienna and 500 km from Paris. DB shows 4 direct TGVs per day that do the run in 3 hours 40 minutes. There are 8 slower connections with changing trains that all get you there between 4 and 5 1/2 hours, admittedly not at regular intervals.
By contrast, there is no direct train from Stuttgart to Vienna. All connections involve at least one change , sometimes two. Best traveling time to Wien Westbf is 6.32 h, Wien Hbf ca. 7 hrs. There is no lack of connections, sometimes as many as 3 an hour, but as they all depart within a common 15-minute window, the benefit to passengers is minimal. Also, they dwindle after 15.00, as this means a very late arrival.
Now you tell me which one of the two cities can claim to be better connected to Stuttgart?
Baron Hirsch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 04:06 PM   #3029
Baron Hirsch
Kara Tren Solcusu
 
Baron Hirsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin/Istanbul
Posts: 1,337
Likes (Received): 475

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
So it would appear at first glance that Frankfurt is better connected to Germany than Paris is to France... But of course this has everything to do with geography...
A nice comparison. But as you yourself like to point out, there are not as many good reasons to be in Frankfurt as there are to be in Paris, so many people will want to travel via Frankfurt among these agglomerations, and then often a trip by rail will seem unattractively slow to people (> 4 hrs) who have no qualms about flying and an airport nearby. As one colleague above suggested, a lot would be gained if the access routes to Frankfurt would be upgraded or built new from Mannheim, Fulda, Würzburg and Erfurt, as this would make a big effect on overall travel times on the German HS network.
While most cities in the ICE grid are only connected hourly (except on lines where routes double and for a couple of vintage IC train sets on Fridays and Sundays), Paris-Marseille, Paris-Lille, and Paris-Lyon see mostly twice hourly departures. Nice is admittedly the ugly little duckling at the end of the country no-one much cares about.
The advantage of the German system is hardly to be found in its long distance services. The advantage is mostly that long distance services are integrated into a heavily subsidized regional traffic system, which can more easily guarantee for a door to door service via public transport.
Baron Hirsch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 04:48 PM   #3030
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Oh K, your naive belief that the turtle always beats the rabbit.
It's not my belief that the turtle beats the hare. It's my belief however that 10 turtles indeed will beat 5 hares....

Speed isn't the only thing that matters.

But anyway, I was more thinking about places that were in the middle timewise, not distance wise. What I wanted to point out that not only how fast matters, but how often too.
Speed isn't everything. On Amsterdam - Brussel the slow IC is still more popular than Thalys...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 04:55 PM   #3031
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
While most cities in the ICE grid are only connected hourly (except on lines where routes double and for a couple of vintage IC train sets on Fridays and Sundays), Paris-Marseille, Paris-Lille, and Paris-Lyon see mostly twice hourly departures. Nice is admittedly the ugly little duckling at the end of the country no-one much cares about.
The advantage of the German system is hardly to be found in its long distance services. The advantage is mostly that long distance services are integrated into a heavily subsidized regional traffic system, which can more easily guarantee for a door to door service via public transport.
The difference is also in the fact that it is a grid, not a hub and spoke system. The German ICE system gives acceptable connections between all major urban areas in Germany. The French system gives excellent connections with Paris, but the moment you try to get from "somewhere not Paris" to "Somewhere else not Paris" the system quickly becomes unsatisfactory. Just look at the service level on Bordeaux - Toulouse - Marseille for example. That's a corridor with quite a few major cities, that would merit a half hourly IC service throughout the day.

This is the main difference. DB doesn't concentrate on serving one urban area the expense of all else.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 05:14 PM   #3032
Baron Hirsch
Kara Tren Solcusu
 
Baron Hirsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin/Istanbul
Posts: 1,337
Likes (Received): 475

Even that works out kind of well. Bordeaux to Marseille is also 500 km as the crow flies and has 7 direct connections per day in 6 hours each. Not great, but still superior to Stuttgart-Vienna timewise, although of course sub-standard when you see other French services.
By the way according to the list I just consulted, Bordeaux and Toulouse are also > 1 million conglomerations. While Bordeaux is rather well connected under 3 1/2 hours from Paris and more HS rails are being laid to get it closer to Paris, Toulouse is the odd one out with 5 1/2 hours traveling time from Paris (via Bordeaux) and few direct connections.
Baron Hirsch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 05:23 PM   #3033
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21258

The importance of frequency diminishes as distances increase and travel time becomes more relevant.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 05:53 PM   #3034
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,886
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
Nope, those graphs only show travel times and nothing else. It says absolutely nothing about the connections available. Vienna is directly connected to every capital (forget about Bern) in Central Europe and additionally to that the capitals of Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Romania, Russia and Italy. Therfore no, Paris does not cover a greater area, but one that is significantly smaller, but within those borders travel time is indeed faster.
Your last sentence doesn't make sense at all. And as for being directly connected to central European capitals, these capitals are numerous because their countries are in most cases small and of little significance. The political and economic centre of gravity of Europe is located western Europe, somewhere between Brussels and Köln. An area closer and better connected to Paris.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 06:59 PM   #3035
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,886
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
This is not interily correct. For example trip times from Frankfurt to Milano are the same as from Paris to Milano, but you have more options on Frankfurt - Milano then on Paris - Milano.
The quickest connection from Paris is 20 min faster than the fastest one from Frankfurt/M. And it is a direct train from Paris. Connections from Frankfurt/M require a change, often even more than one, and there aren't that much more frequent that this criteria would make up for the lag in quickness and convenience that the Paris-Milano TGV is ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The thing the isochrone maps are missing, is that it is not area that matters, but population. The purpose of travel is usually to meet other people. And so what matters is not how many square km you can reach from a place but how many destinations that that are actually useful. One way to for example quantify how wel a place is connected is to look at how many urban areas of a particular size one can reach within a certain time.


The red line in this graphic roughly marks the 'time'shed between Paris and Frankfurt/M, while the green line marks the geographic halfway line.
That gives you an idea in which area one is timely closer to Paris or Frankfurt/M by railways. This graphic alone demonstrates the superiority of the French railway network over the German one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
How often a train runs is also important. A city pair that has a train every hour that takes 2 hours is better connected then one that has only a few trains a day, that take only 1 hour.
The importance of frequency decreases with the length of a journey. I haven't found a town whose travel time to the cities are roughly the same and yet the frequency in service to one is significantly more frequent than to the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The structure of a country matters too. These are the urban areas in France with more than one million people:

Lille
Lyon
Marseille
Nice
Paris

Now from Paris you can reach Lille in a bit over an hour, Lyon in a bit under two hours, Marseille in 3 1/2 hours and Nice in 5 1/2 hours.
You seem to forget the largest conurbation in France, the Île de France. Its population of 10m people are located within the 1h isochrone from Paris. This already gives Paris a lead over Frankfurt/M

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
And these are the urban areas with more than one million inhabitants in Germany:

Berlin
Bremen
Frankfurt
Hamburg
Munich
Nuremberg
Düsseldorf
Cologne
Ruhr area
Saarbrücken
Stuttgart

Now from Frankfurt you can reach 3 of those in under 2 hours, 3 more in under three hours, 3 in under 4 hours, and one (Berlin) in just over 4 hours. And in each case you have a train every hour.

So it would appear at first glance that Frankfurt is better connected to Germany than Paris is to France... But of course this has everything to do with geography...
There are 65m people in France, another 65m in Britain, 55m on the Iberian peninsula, most of the 25m in Benelux and most of the 60m people in Italy which live closer to Paris than to Frankfurt/M. You have to go deep into Asia to find enough people to counter the population on the Paris side of the shed.
__________________
Rippachtal.de

Suburbanist liked this post
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 4th, 2015, 09:42 PM   #3036
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21258

Germany should have built a maglev line between München and Köln, that would have helped with issues a lot.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2015, 10:27 AM   #3037
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The importance of frequency diminishes as distances increase and travel time becomes more relevant.
That's true if you only consider the end points relevant. But a train from for example Berlin to Frankfurt does a lot more than just move people from Berlin to Frankfurt.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2015, 10:28 AM   #3038
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
There are 65m people in France, another 65m in Britain, 55m on the Iberian peninsula, most of the 25m in Benelux and most of the 60m people in Italy which live closer to Paris than to Frankfurt/M. You have to go deep into Asia to find enough people to counter the population on the Paris side of the shed.
So now it's Germany's fault that Spain is to the Southwest of France?
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2015, 10:30 AM   #3039
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
You seem to forget the largest conurbation in France, the Île de France. Its population of 10m people are located within the 1h isochrone from Paris. This already gives Paris a lead over Frankfurt/M
No, it's actually a point I keep on making, that you seem to ignore: The population distribution in France is very different than in Germany. That means that French recipes can't be applied to Germany.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 5th, 2015, 10:38 AM   #3040
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Even that works out kind of well. Bordeaux to Marseille is also 500 km as the crow flies and has 7 direct connections per day in 6 hours each. Not great, but still superior to Stuttgart-Vienna timewise, although of course sub-standard when you see other French services.
Stuttgart - Vienna is 535km. Thus 35 km more and 20 minutes longer. . Fewer direct trains, but more connections and a larger amplitude.
I'd call that a tie..
Quote:
By the way according to the list I just consulted, Bordeaux and Toulouse are also > 1 million conglomerations.
It does indeed depend a bit on the list you use.
But it is quite striking that in France you have one huge metropolis, Paris, and then quite a few ones that just are about 1 million or a bit more.
I used this list (and more specifically the first column of figures):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...reas_in_Europe

The thing is that in France the biggest city has 11 million inhabitants. The second biggest has 1.6 ... That is a huge difference, and shows how centralised France is. It also means that from about anywhere in France the main destination is Paris. And this market SNCF serves quite well.
Germany is very different. The biggest urban area, the Ruhr, is not even a city. There are no cities of the size of Paris, but several in the 2 to 5 million bracket. That asks for a different network.
__________________

Maadeuurija liked this post

Last edited by K_; June 5th, 2015 at 10:50 AM.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium