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Old June 6th, 2015, 02:29 AM   #3041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
So now it's Germany's fault that Spain is to the Southwest of France?
No, but it is the fault of Germanys railway policy that Noord- and Zuid-Holland among others have quicker connection to Paris than to Frankfurt/M despite being geographically closer to the latter. This is a clear sign of failure.

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No, it's actually a point I keep on making, that you seem to ignore: The population distribution in France is very different than in Germany. That means that French recipes can't be applied to Germany.
And yet again, you claim that there would be a direct connection between population distribution and the usefulness of high-speed rail without showing any proof. In fact you keep ignoring the examples which counter your stance. This is rather poor.
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Old June 6th, 2015, 03:35 PM   #3042
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St Pancras International Station London by Loco Steve, on Flickr
Fire closes Channel Tunnel! Eurostar trains stranded @ St Pancras London ( 3 Views ) by Loco Steve, on Flickr
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Old June 7th, 2015, 09:37 PM   #3043
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[QUOTE=Nexis;124577511]St Pancras International Station London by Loco Steve, on Flickr
[url=https://flic.kr/p/qxXTXE]
I only wish we had something this beautiful in the states. Grand Central and Union Station in DC are great and as close as we come, but nothing like this.
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Old June 8th, 2015, 12:32 PM   #3044
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Regarding your Paris vs Vienna international connections current discussion, here is an exhaustive list I made in 2013 of the international direct services from/to Paris :

Quote:
Originally Posted by parcdesprinces View Post
With the new Paris <-> Barcelona service opening next week, I think it's time to update my list (originally posted few months ago in this thread: here) of international lines/services from/to Paris :




Paris



High speed (& partially high speed) trains:

Eurostar:
Ashford, Ebbsfleet, Stratford, London. (18 trains per day)

Thalys:
Brussels (16 trains per day*), Antwerp, Rotterdam, Schiphol Airport, Amsterdam. (10 trains per day)
Brussels, Brussels Airport. (1 train per day)
Brussels, Ghent, Bruges, Ostend. (2 trains per day)
Mons, Charleroi, Namur, Liège. (1 train per day)
Brussels, Liège, Aachen, Cologne (5 trains per day), Düsseldorf, Düsseldorf Airport (NEW), Duisburg, Essen. (3 trains per day)
(*in total, 24 trains per day are serving Brussels-Midi/Zuid from Paris-Nord)

TGV Nord-Europe (aka TGV Bruxelles-Province):
Brussels. (from Paris-CDG airport; 8 trains per day)

TGV Est-Européen:
Luxembourg. (7 trains per day)

TGV "Alleo":
Karlsruhe, Stuttgart (4 trains per day), Ulm, Augsburg, Munich. (2 train per day)
Saarbrücken, Kaiserslautern, Mannheim, Frankfurt. (1 train per day)

ICE "Alleo":
Saarbrücken, Kaiserslautern, Mannheim, Frankfurt. (4 trains per day)

TGV Rhin-Rhône:
Freiburg im Breisgau. (1 train per day; NEW)

TGV Lyria (formerly "TGV Ligne de Cœur"):
Basel, Zurich. (6 trains per day)
Basel, Bern, Thun, Spiez, Interlaken. (1 train per day)
Neuchâtel (3 trains per day)
Vallorbe, Lausanne (5 trains per day), Montreux*, Aigle*, Martigny*, Sion*, Sierre*, Leuk*, Visp*, Brig*. (* seasonal; 3 trains per week during winter)
Geneva. (10 trains per day)

TGV Europe France-Italia (formerly "TGV Artesia"):
Bardonecchia, Oulx/Sestriere, Turin, Vercelli, Novara, Milan. (3 trains per day)

TGV Atlantique:
Irún. (1 train per day)

TGV Méditerranée:
Monaco Monte-Carlo, Ventimiglia. (1 train per day)
Figueres, Girona, Barcelona. (3 trains per day; 4 per day during summer; NEW)


-----------------------


Other trains & services:

Intercités de Nuit (night trains):
Irún. (3 trains per week; daily during holidays)

Elipsos Trainhotel (night trains):
Figueres, Girona, Barcelona. (6 trains per week during winter; daily during summer)
Vitoria, Burgos, Valladolid, Madrid. (5 trains per week during winter; daily during summer)


Thello (night trains):
Milan, Brescia, Verona, Vicenza, Padova, Venice. (daily)
Bologna, Florence, Rome. (daily) []

CityNightLine (night trains):
Saarbrücken, Göttingen, Hanover, Hamburg. (daily)
Saarbrücken, Göttingen, Hanover, Berlin. (daily)
Saarbrücken, Stuttgart, Plochingen, Göppingen, Geislingen/Steige, Ulm, Günzburg, Augsburg, Munich (daily), Kufstein*, Wörgl*, Jenbach*, Innsbruck*. (* seasonal; once-a-week during winter)

Trans-European Moscow Express:
Saarbrücken, Frankfurt/Main, Hanover, Berlin, Frankfurt/Oder, Poznan, Warsaw, Brest-Litovsk, Minsk, Moscow. (three-times-a-week during winter; five-times-a-week during summer)





P.S. Of course there is also the Venice-Simplon Orient Express which serves several destinations from Paris Gare de l'Est, but since it's a luxury and seasonal service, I didn't mention it.

And here is the Vienna's list posted by KingNick in 2013 as well:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
Vienna

Regional Trains:
Bratislava (2 trains per hour)
Sopron (HU) (2 trains per hour)
Znojmo (CZ) (1-2 trains every 2 hours)
Breclav (CZ) (4 trains per day)

IC trains:
Freilassing (DE) (1 train per hour)

EC/RJ/ICE trains:
Budapest (1 train every 2 hours)
Munich (1 train every 2 hours)
Frankfurt (1 train every 2 hours)
Dortmund (3 trains per day)
Zurich (1 train every 2 hours)
Prague (1 train every 2 hours)
Ostrava (2 trains per day)
Ljubljana (1 train per day)
Hamburg (1 train per day)
Warsaw (2 trains per day)
Zagreb (1 train per day)

EN trains:
Rome (daily)
Livorno (single seasonal trains)
Venice (daily)
Budapest (2 trains per day)
Milan (daily)
Hamburg (daily)
Berlin (daily)
Munich (daily)
Cologne (daily)
Zurich (daily)
Warsaw (daily)
Krakow (daily)
Bucharest (daily from 23.04. until 01.10.)
Moscow via Minsk (daily)


Hope this helps .

Last edited by parcdesprinces; June 8th, 2015 at 09:02 PM.
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Old June 8th, 2015, 07:28 PM   #3045
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The Paris - Barcelona frequency has been increased from 2 to 3 daily services, 4 during summer.
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Old June 8th, 2015, 08:57 PM   #3046
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Indeed! (I know my list is no longer up to date... anyway, it is now in my last post regarding the Paris-Barcelona ).
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Old June 8th, 2015, 09:51 PM   #3047
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How long does it take between Paris & Barcelona?
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Old June 8th, 2015, 09:58 PM   #3048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
How long does it take between Paris & Barcelona?
Most services take 6h28. If my calculations are correct the railroad distance between both stations served on the line is 1104km.
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Old June 8th, 2015, 11:20 PM   #3049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
And yet again, you claim that there would be a direct connection between population distribution and the usefulness of high-speed rail without showing any proof. In fact you keep ignoring the examples which counter your stance. This is rather poor.
No. What I claimed is that the value of a transportation system is contingent on how many destinations it lets you reach within your time budget. Not primary on it's speed. That means that in an area with a higher population density you don't need high speeds. In fact, if you look at the real world (where we get our evidence from...) you will see that the most successful systems are not always the fastest.
In France the only way you will get other cities of more than 1 million inhabitants within 2 hours of Paris is with high speed rail. But in Germany you have several urban areas of 2 or 3 million inhabitants that are within an hour of each other with conventional rail. And unlike SNCF the German railways can't get away with only serving traffic to one urban centre well, at the expense of all the others.
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Old June 8th, 2015, 11:22 PM   #3050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parcdesprinces View Post
Regarding your Paris vs Vienna international connections current discussion, here is an exhaustive list I made in 2013 of the international direct services from/to Paris :
Unfortunately you can scratch Paris - Neuchâtel from that list...
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Old June 8th, 2015, 11:30 PM   #3051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The importance of frequency diminishes as distances increase and travel time becomes more relevant.
You should not forget that a train does not just serve it's endpoints. It serves the points in between as well. And a more frequent service can take more advantage of network effects.

An example is Geneva - Turin. The fastest connection is 4h14 via Chambery. More such fast connections would be possible of the trains on the routes involved (Paris - Torino and Geneve - Grenoble were more frequent. I personally think that a two - hourly service on Torino - Lyon would be a lot more useful then the two Torino - Paris trains at present.
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Old June 8th, 2015, 11:44 PM   #3052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
You should not forget that a train does not just serve it's endpoints. It serves the points in between as well. And a more frequent service can take more advantage of network effects.

An example is Geneva - Turin. The fastest connection is 4h14 via Chambery. More such fast connections would be possible of the trains on the routes involved (Paris - Torino and Geneve - Grenoble were more frequent. I personally think that a two - hourly service on Torino - Lyon would be a lot more useful then the two Torino - Paris trains at present.
The problem, K_, is that you are so fixated on intermediate relations and shorter-distance connections that you seem to forget the effects of slashed travel times between major cities that create demand on their own (such as Paris-Torino/Milano, or Paris-Barcelona). The Barcelona case is a good example: without the very fast links to Paris, we wouldn't have a commercially feasible Barcelona-Paris service. A "just fast-ish" service would take 10h and few would take that route.
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Old June 9th, 2015, 12:40 PM   #3053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The problem, K_, is that you are so fixated on intermediate relations and shorter-distance connections that you seem to forget the effects of slashed travel times between major cities that create demand on their own (such as Paris-Torino/Milano, or Paris-Barcelona). The Barcelona case is a good example: without the very fast links to Paris, we wouldn't have a commercially feasible Barcelona-Paris service. A "just fast-ish" service would take 10h and few would take that route.
The problem is that you are so fixed on turning railways in to a ground level airline that you forget that the strength of a railway lies in it's network effects. There are lots of trains that don't generate enough demand in their endpoints alone to really justify their existence, and the Barcelona - Paris and Paris - Torino trains are prime examples here. These trains need the network effects. They need passengers that connect from intermediate stations. The Paris - Barcelona trains for example could have more passengers it they offered better connections with trains to Geneva for example. They would have more passengers if day trips from Barcelona to for example Carcassonne were possible.

SNCF doesn't seem to get this though, and this is why you only have two trains from Paris to Torino, but an hourly service from anywhere in Switzerland to mostly anywhere in Germany.

It still puzzles me that a person who professes to be in favour of the free market economy and capitalism is so dead set in trying to make more money out of existing infrastructure. The purpose of a railway is to move people, not enrich building firms. Something many railways in Europe still don't get.
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Old June 9th, 2015, 01:21 PM   #3054
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from paris to torino/milano there are three TGVs each day.

lastly, since the service is managed entirely by a subsidiary of SNCF, the load factor increased dramatically.

concerning the traffic sustainability, there could be already now other 2 couples of trains, but the problem is that there are only six TGVs trainset capable of running on italian network (without ERTMS L2 moreover, so they don't run on HSL in italy and limited at 160 km/h).
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Old June 9th, 2015, 04:41 PM   #3055
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
It still puzzles me that a person who professes to be in favour of the free market economy and capitalism is so dead set in trying to make more money out of existing infrastructure. The purpose of a railway is to move people, not enrich building firms. Something many railways in Europe still don't get.
And if this does not get fixed quickly, we will start having problems with high-speed
infrastructure that is not used enough to justify its existence, let alone
its maintenance costs. TP Ferro, erring on the verge of bankruptcy, is a good
example of this. Most of the high-speed lines built in France during the 21st
century would face the same issue, had they not been built and paid for
directly by the public sector. Probably also true for most lines built in Spain.
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Old June 9th, 2015, 05:20 PM   #3056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post

It still puzzles me that a person who professes to be in favour of the free market economy and capitalism is so dead set in trying to make more money out of existing infrastructure. The purpose of a railway is to move people, not enrich building firms. Something many railways in Europe still don't get.
I'm all for using high-speed infrastructure more, but they need to be built force. Lame schemes like some stuff build in Germany is not high speed to begin with (doesn't even allow 300 km/h), while the networks in Spain and Italy are prepared to cope with trains travelling at operational speed of up to 360km/h (which is almost 25% higher than some of the German projects). The geometry of several lines would allow traffic up to 400km/h, indeed, as long as a new generation of pantographs and new wiring is put in place to deal with the heat effects of attrition of trains travelling at that speed, and some more powerful trains come around able to hoist enough power to deal with wind resistance.

To make matters worse, DB wants to operate "fast enough" high speed trains and ordered trains able to run only up to 270km/h, instead of 320km/h.
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Old June 9th, 2015, 08:08 PM   #3057
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Again, this is a question of geography and population distribution. In France,
Spain, and Italy, population centers are far apart so driving fast makes sense.
This is not the case in Germany where population centers, and therefore train
stops, are much closer to each other. But I agree that they aim a bit too low,
even if they don't intend to drive that fast now, this rolling stock is too
limited and therefore not future-proof.

I don't believe however that we will see high-speed trains going much faster
than today (300-320 km/h, that is). With the energy needed growing like the
square of the speed, it becomes quickly uneconomic to go faster. Airliners
cruise a 30.000 feet for a good reason... A good example of that is SNCF,
acquiring TGVs that can cruise at 320 km/h, and building lines for that speed
too, making the schedules for 300 km/h only. The 20 km/h above that are
only used to catch up delays.
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Old June 10th, 2015, 01:07 AM   #3058
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italy and germany both are pretty similar since the population is more equally distributed. spain and france don't instead. fully visible in maps at night with artificial lights.

just see the huge "stain" in the Po valley and the adriatic coast.

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Last edited by dreaad; June 10th, 2015 at 12:30 PM.
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Old June 23rd, 2015, 03:54 PM   #3059
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From Rail Journal:

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http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=537

Rail Baltica project builds “momentum”
Tuesday, June 23, 2015



TRANSPORT ministers from Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland signed a declaration on the implementation of the Rail Baltica project during the Ten-T Days conference held in the Latvian capital Riga on June 22

The ministers also unveiled a plaque at Riga Central station to mark the site of the future station on the 1435mm-gauge line while an exhibition devoted to the project was also held at the station

...
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Old June 25th, 2015, 08:54 PM   #3060
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Are there any news about Euro Carex?

Euro Carex is a project of a high-speed freight train service between France, England, Belgium, Netherlands and Germany. These trains would use the current HSL network in overnight trips, carrying airfreight between airports and a "railport" near London.

This project was born in 2009 and a trial trip was realized in 2012 when a modified TGV La Poste trainset ran from Lyon Airport and Charles de Gaulle Airport to London.

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