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Old July 3rd, 2017, 02:37 PM   #3541
jonasry
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I've never understood the practice of scrapping trains only 20 years old. Would be interesting to see the numbers behind that reasoning. Older trains consume more electricity, but apart from that I really can't think of any valid reasons that would make them unusable.
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 04:10 PM   #3542
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Sometimes it does (it would in the case of the Fyra V250 or other failed projects) but in this case it does not make sense indeed. It would still work well beyond the 2020s. I hate the fact that many public goods called trains and buses are scrapped early. They should be more careful, especially when the old stuff is economically still pretty good.

This is also the reason I think the maximum age of buses in the Netherlands is bogus. I mean seriously, it does serve no purpose except keeping the VDL factory away from bankruptcy but instead we pay a lot of taxes to fund new buses. 12 years old is not really much. If bus tickets can get cheaper by making them going around for 15-20 years instead, I'd choose for that, absolutely. Also, in many countries buses from the 1980s still work perfectly (though that is beyond the border for environmental reasons, particles etc. I mean, electric buses especially should have an extended age limit).

Also, trains of 45 years old have worked pretty well here in the Netherlands. They had not the comfort you could expect nowadays but what extra comfort, not being speed or something, could you expect in the years to come? I think nothing, AC is there, Wi-Fi is there, plugs are there in many trains as well (especially in the first class), I do absolutely not see a reason to scrap trains of today early if there is no reason.

Reasons: electrification, new HST, scrapping lines in favour of HST or because of excessively low demand, single-deck trains on heavy-used lines that cannot be put in elsewhere. Otherwise: 30 years and no less!
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 06:29 PM   #3543
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In the case of Japan, the bullet trains get an obscenely high amount of use during their lifespans.

Combine that with the constant improvements to squeeze out more capacity, and the subsequent need for a consistent fleet with as close-as-possible acceleration curves, and you get a short service career.

The 500 and 700 series are both within 20 years old, yet they are slowly being pushed towards retirement.
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 06:39 PM   #3544
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The Eurostar TMST sets are more than 20 years old and have clocked up a lot of miles throughout their years in service. Some of them are in a bad state (think corrosion) and in desperate need of repairs. They were made to fulfill a specific purpose and due to their length and power requirements it's hard to deploy them elsewhere. Their build limits their usability (i.e. they can't run to Germany or Switzerland) and it's becoming increasingly hard to get spare parts.

As much as it might hurt to see these trains being scrapped, it's not a strange decision to scrap them.
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 07:44 PM   #3545
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Even if they don't want to use them any more - I am sure a railway of another country wouldn't mind buying those train for the price of scrap, or even more.

So what's the point of scrapping them?
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 08:40 PM   #3546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Even if they don't want to use them any more - I am sure a railway of another country wouldn't mind buying those train for the price of scrap, or even more.

So what's the point of scrapping them?
As AlexNL said, the power requirements are high, and the technical specs are highly restrictive.
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 09:20 PM   #3547
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Sometimes railway companies scrap rolling stock just to avoid seeing it fall in the hands of competitors. Getting new equipment to go through the chunnel is horribly expensive. But putting those trains on sale might have helped another company to start, at a very low price, a competing service. Other companies have done that in the past. Not entirely sure, but NS and DB come to mind. I think SNCF does that now with its first generation TGVs too. I remember well that when the preservation group I'm member of tried to salvage old SNCB 1805, the hardest part was to convince SNCB officials that it would not be used in commercial service again. They were afraid that this quadricourant loc might be used to start a service competing with Thalys...
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 10:14 PM   #3548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Even if they don't want to use them any more - I am sure a railway of another country wouldn't mind buying those train for the price of scrap, or even more.

So what's the point of scrapping them?
Don't forget that we're talking about 400 metre units which offer seats to 750 passengers. They're fixed formation units, so even if you'd want to reduce the amount of coaches you'll most likely have to adjust the on board computers.

Their physical characteristics limit their usefulness a lot: due to their length not all stations can handle them, dwell times are long due to a limited amount of doors, power usage is high* and because they're fixed formation units it's impossible to adapt capacity to demand.

The only place where these trains could be useful is on the current Eurostar routes - why would Eurostar help a potential competitor?

* When GNER used the Regional Eurostar sets for London - York services, only 1 TMST set was allowed in a section to prevent the power supply from getting overloaded.
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 11:07 PM   #3549
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thank you for the last sentence: I was looking for an answer for something different:

why we had to wait fifteen minutes in order to let a Thalys pass on the HST near Lage Zwaluwe before entering it. For the speed it isn't needed as in the same time our train could have been in Rotterdam already, but the power on the system gets used heavily.
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And prohibit the use of agricultural land for new dwellings!
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Old July 3rd, 2017, 11:59 PM   #3550
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Because TAD ("Treinafhandelingsdocument")
I think I wrote about it in the Dutch thread. Basically, it's a document that dictates which trains goes first. The maximum delay for the Thalys train to go first is 13 minutes, and with an enthusiastic driver, you'll arrive a few minutes early at the entry point to the high speed line, which means you'll have to wait for 15 minutes in order to proceed.
It has nothing to do with the power supply.

Last edited by mistertl; July 4th, 2017 at 01:02 AM.
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Old July 4th, 2017, 12:28 AM   #3551
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The Polish Pendolinos also used to cause some power problems. Some claimed it's a reason why they aren't used in multiple traction. In practice, it was shown that they can be used in multiple traction (some trains for the World Youth Days in Cracow were set in such a way), but if I am not mistaken, they cannot reach their maximum speed in such a situation. Otherwise, they would overload the power supply.

But we are using the 3 kV DC system in Poland. With 25 kV AC, it should be better.
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Old July 4th, 2017, 12:36 AM   #3552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
The Polish Pendolinos also used to cause some power problems. Some claimed it's a reason why they aren't used in multiple traction. In practice, it was shown that they can be used in multiple traction (some trains for the World Youth Days in Cracow were set in such a way), but if I am not mistaken, they cannot reach their maximum speed in such a situation. Otherwise, they would overload the power supply.

But we are using the 3 kV DC system in Poland. With 25 kV AC, it should be better.
This might also be because of a problem with the catenary. Two units means two pantographs and if the power line isn't mechanically tensioned enough, the catenary will move up and the second panto will lose contact. The only way to avoid that is to lower the speed or to increase the wire mechanical tension.
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Old July 4th, 2017, 12:56 AM   #3553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Polman View Post
why we had to wait fifteen minutes in order to let a Thalys pass on the HST near Lage Zwaluwe before entering it. For the speed it isn't needed as in the same time our train could have been in Rotterdam already, but the power on the system gets used heavily.
The HSL Zuid power supply can handle the load of a Thalys and an ICd in the same section just fine, this is just a matter of priority. Thalys trains take precedence over domestic trains.

The electrification on the East Coast Main Line was done on the cheap: instead of solid structures, the BR engineers used headspans which are more susceptible to strong winds and cause significant disruption when the overhead lines go down. Furthermore, the substations can deliver less power when compared to their counterparts on the WCML.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 10:45 AM   #3554
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From Rail Journal

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=523

Macron pauses Lyon - Turin high-speed project
July 20, 2017



FRANCE’s minister of transport Mrs Elisabeth Borne confirmed on July 19 that the €26.1bn Lyon - Turin high-speed line is one of the major projects to be paused by president Mr Emmanuel Marcon pending a review of France’s infrastructure plans

In an interview with French news website Reporterre, Borne said that the state faces a €10bn shortfall in funding for committed projects and maintenance, and a “break” is therefore needed to “reflect on the mobility model and prioritise projects”

...
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 06:29 PM   #3555
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Predictable but sad for what is an important link in a *European* context.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 06:50 PM   #3556
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Pro-European in talk, not in investment.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 07:37 PM   #3557
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Judge a person by his deeds, indeed.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 09:35 PM   #3558
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He's a free market economist that in any other time would be labelled Thatcherite, and they are not known for favouring large amounts of state spending on infrastructure. It's only the opponent he was up against that allowed him to take the centre-left ground in the election.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 04:21 PM   #3559
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http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/201...stionnaire.php

Quote:
La ministre a toutefois fait état de la "spécificité" du projet qui "a été financé ŕ 40% par l'Union européenne, mais aussi ŕ 35% par l'Italie, et qui fait partie des réseaux trans-européens", "un aspect" ŕ "prendre en compte" dans les éventuelles décisions ŕ venir.
Maybe there is hope.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 12:39 AM   #3560
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After 6 years there will be again passenger trains running between Slovenia and Italy next year (Ljubljana–Trieste–Venice). These days there's an Italian train testing Slovenian railways:


http://www.slo-zeleznice.si/sl/novic...m-in-benetkami

I say finally, although I don't like the idea of driving 4 hours on a not-very-comfortable regional train. They should also skip Trieste and send another train there from Aurisina.
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