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Old February 14th, 2009, 06:30 PM   #441
Micrav
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I wander why now, for long distance trains, they don't build double-deck in standard, it would dramatically lower the price of the ticket. Imagine, I paid recently with Ryanair 40 € for return ticket Riga-Brussels (around 3000 km). To make 300 km in Belgium, I pay around the same amount: 40€ . When will we see low-fares trains? We still need to find the Michael O'Leary of the railway industry...

O'Leary benefited from Europe open doors. So maybe we will see the same thing for railway industry...
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Old February 14th, 2009, 06:34 PM   #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micrav View Post
I wander why now, for long distance trains, they don't build double-deck in standard, it would dramatically lower the price of the ticket. Imagine, I paid recently with Ryanair 40 € for return ticket Riga-Brussels (around 3000 km). To make 300 km in Belgium, I pay around the same amount: 40€ . When will we see low-fares trains? We still need to find the Michael O'Leary of the railway industry...

O'Leary benefited from Europe open doors. So maybe we will see the same thing for railway industry...

it only lowers the price if there is excess demand
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Old February 14th, 2009, 07:54 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
it only lowers the price if there is excess demand
Also, if trains are convenient, interconnected, with free sufficient parkings, linked directly to stations, not smelly and confortable cars where you don't have to stand for long trips, if material is new, if trains are reliable with time and mechanics, if you can find a quick rental or bus or affordable taxi at station, then you attract new customers. Knowing number of people using trains during soviet time in Eastern Europe shows potential of railway industry, when nobody could afford a car... No, the name of the game is convenience and interconnection. If train is not as convenient as the car, then people who have a car will use it. Sometimes, I feel that taking a train is a robery. Even abonements are for onl one line. Imagine if you have an abonnement for all Europe for 500€/year x 400 million people= 200 billion euros for the european railway industry to share each year. Not enough?
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Old February 14th, 2009, 08:06 PM   #444
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true, rail travel in europe is quite expensive and its only a real alternative right now for commuting and short(er) distance inter city

liberalization should do the same it did with low-cost flight
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Old February 14th, 2009, 08:08 PM   #445
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500€/year x 400 million people= 200 billion euros for the european railway industry to share each year. Not enough?
first of all, 400 million is way to much, probably less than 50 million use rail travel regularly

second, 500 eur is a HUGE amount of money in eastern europe..
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Old February 14th, 2009, 08:10 PM   #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micrav View Post
[…]
To make 300 km in Belgium, I pay around the same amount: 40€ .
For normal fare that is not much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Micrav View Post
When will we see low-fares trains? We still need to find the Michael O'Leary of the railway industry...
In Germany we have low-fare prices if it is booked early enough.
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Old February 14th, 2009, 08:15 PM   #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
[…]
liberalization should do the same it did with low-cost flight
Not really. What it makes you can see in the UK!
And we will see how many low cost airlines will survive the crisis.
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Old February 14th, 2009, 09:26 PM   #448
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For example Germany Deutsche Bahn:

Köln–Frankfurt/M (≈ 175 km) --> normal fare 63 € one way; low fare 29 € one way.
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Old February 15th, 2009, 07:01 PM   #449
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Ok, now imagine average salary in the Baltics is 500 €/month and minimum salary is less than 200 €/month... So price you give for a trip from Koln to Frankfurt is way too high... Actually, we are a bit screwed in Europe and living at different speeds. Belgian living in Latvia, I see how it those differences are influencing everything. Latvia dreams to live on West-european standards but cannot afford it... And governement is not going its works for hundreds of reasons... So everybody is in sh.. The only thing remaining is the power of dreams and exodus if you want to live normally, unfortunately... Or massive and controlled investments from other countries to raise the level. BTW, retired epople earn less than the minimum of living... This is another example of the crapy situation here... We are speaking a bout HSR between Tallinn and Warsaw, but if we are in so deep trouble, it will remain a dream I guess...
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Old February 16th, 2009, 02:00 PM   #450
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I would like to see some interesting sleepers from London. They could stop in Lille or CDG/Disney to pick up passengers as well.

Obviously they wouldn't run at full 186/300 through the night! But I wonder what the optimum would be for sleepers.

A train to Barcelona through Avignon, Montpellier and Perpignan would be great. An Italian train covering Milan and Rome too. Or splitting at Milan with one part heading towards Venice?

You could do them one way and fly back.

Also, Amsterdam and Cologne from London are a must.
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Old February 16th, 2009, 02:27 PM   #451
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yea, i was also thinkig about sleeper trains, just like theyre doing it in china right now
even at an average 100 kph, from 6pm to 6am they could cover over 1000kms
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Old February 17th, 2009, 09:09 AM   #452
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The Russians have showed very strong interest in buying a minority stake in the company and the DB is also positive about it. So it's not because the DB is in trouble, it's more to make it even stronger.
DB should think 10 times before selling to russians. RZD is state owned and does nothing else but serves orders from state. Also what kind of investor RZD could be if it's starving for money? Here must be something I can't read between the lines.

DB is strong in western europe. But what happens if you take business logic(read.. put state logic instead) and stability away from strong -> chaos will come.

First Russia shoud prove itself, show out some good directions, stability(doesn't change it's mind over night) and then maby Russia coud be taken as serious partner.
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Old February 17th, 2009, 01:35 PM   #453
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Long-distance train travel in the style of the Orient Express make little economic sense. To compete with air travel the travel time should be three hours or less (four hours with fringe benefits). Given an actual travel speed of more like 200 km/hour than 360 km/h for high-speed routes, that means routes less than 600 (800 km). In most cases the high-speed lines are planned, not actually made.

International routes make particular sense where more countries are involved. Personally I'd like more competition Prague-Berlin-Malmö/Copenhagen (with potential extensions to Oslo and Stockholm, but there I'd frankly rather take a plane). The Prague-Wrocław line is currently horrible, and a Prague-Warzaw route would be nice, but anything but high-speed.
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Old February 17th, 2009, 06:04 PM   #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtManDoo View Post
DB should think 10 times before selling to russians. RZD is state owned and does nothing else but serves orders from state. Also what kind of investor RZD could be if it's starving for money? Here must be something I can't read between the lines.

DB is strong in western europe. But what happens if you take business logic(read.. put state logic instead) and stability away from strong -> chaos will come.

First Russia shoud prove itself, show out some good directions, stability(doesn't change it's mind over night) and then maby Russia coud be taken as serious partner.
DB and RŽD have close links since decades. Where should be the problem?

P. S.: DB is state owned too.
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Old February 17th, 2009, 06:34 PM   #455
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Latest news: Reuters says that DB wants to sell 49 percent of the biggest polish private rail company (PCC) to RŽD. DB has bought PCC last year but did not say anything about selling it to another company.
If that will come true, it can lead to a crisis between Poland and Germany.

In German: http://de.reuters.com/article/deEuro...53096820090217
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Old February 18th, 2009, 12:23 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
biggest polish private rail company (PCC) to RŽD.
Of course PCC in relative terms isn't exactly big. DB bought them for 450 million Euro, yearly turnover is 350 million. They have a market share of 8% - in Poland. DB Schenker as a whole has a yearly turnover of around 17.9 billion Euro, rail freight through DB Schenker Rail accounts for 3.9 billion Euro.
(... of course the same argument could go with regard to EWS or Transfesa, other recent DB buys ...)
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Old February 18th, 2009, 07:54 PM   #457
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Quote:
Category: Business
Added: 2009-02-18 12:41:11

Germany, Poland, Russia: DB wants RZD to buy 49% stake in PCC

Deutsche Bahn, which paid EUR 450m for Polish freight operator PCC, wants Russian railway monopoly RZD to take almost half of the shares, Forbes reports referring to Reuters.

A person familiar with the plans told Reuters that RZD would buy the 49 percent stake.

However, such a plan could have political implications as Poland is sensitive to any cooperation deals between its two big neighbours, Germany and Russia, not least for historical reasons.

[…]
http://www.railwaymarket.eu/6553/Ger...2Bin%2BPCC.htm
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Old February 19th, 2009, 12:56 AM   #458
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Yes, the thing is that we are playing with trains, when big guys are playing with business using trains... That is a whole different world and you start to understand a lot of things...
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Old April 20th, 2009, 02:29 PM   #459
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Broad gauge extension to Central Europe

Because of a discussion in the Kazakhstan thread, I want to open a thread about the planned broad gauge extension to Central Europe.

Quote:
Accords signed to bring broad gauge to Wien

25 Nov 2008

SLOVAKIA: In a ceremony at the Dobra container transfer terminal near the Ukrainian border, Minister of Transport Lubomir Vazny signed a Memorandum of Intent on November 25 with Russian Railways President Vladimir Yakunin and Deputy Director of Ukrainian Railways Michael Kospjuk for the construction of a 1 520 mm gauge railway to Wien. Running mainly through Slovakian territory the line would make use of the existing broad-gauge route which serves the steelworks at Kosice, the country’s second-largest city.

[…]
http://www.railwaygazette.com/pi_sin...ds_signed.html

What do you think? Will it be a good idea to extend broad gauge to Austria or wouldn't it be better to spend the money in gauge changeable vehicles?
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Old April 20th, 2009, 03:29 PM   #460
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As it will probably be used mainly for freight services, gauge changeable vehicles would be very expensive (as you don't have fix train compositions). As Vienna is connected quite good from the West, it's probably a good idea to collect traffic from Southern Germany, Italy and the Adriatic region there and send it to the East.
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