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Old June 2nd, 2009, 08:47 PM   #501
Qwert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Yes but transhipping from broad to standard gauge wagons in Vienna or in Chop is quite the same.
Yes, if a cargo is transported from e.g. Beijing to Europe, it doesn't really matter if it's transshipped in Chop or Košice instead of Vienna. This is one of the strongest arguments against the extension and we must think twice whether something like this is really needed. Well, this is question rather for true experts.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 03:09 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by Qwert View Post
[…]

On the other hand, gramercy is right. Bigger problem for this intercontinental transport is bad condition of railways in the former USSR. They must be improved to establish fast and efficient route to transport cargo from Asia which would be better than naval transport. This doesn't require some HSR, even average speed around 40 km/h would be much better than average speed of ships.

[…]
The most interesting stretch for the traffic Europe–Asia is the Transsib. The Transsib is in a better shape than most stretches in Slovakia, Poland etc. and in a better shape than many stretches in Germany, France, Spain etc.
The problem is the organisation of the traffic, not the Vmax of the Transsib.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 10:04 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
if intercontinental freight needs improvements, its the 10.000 kms of tracks in the former soviet union....tracks that barely allow 20-40-60 kph...
Yeah it's more cheap to change 225000 kms of Russian gauge to UIC even on permafrost or Siberian lands.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 10:26 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by Qwert View Post
If this route will become good option how to transport cargo from Asia to Europe then even transit payments can be higher than present transshipping payments.

We'll actually if it is a politically driven project, then it would be hard to impose higher tariffs.

Also I don't think ZSSK Cargo would benefit from it as a hauler. It sounds reasonable to have one line an as little loco changes as possible.

The problem with East - West freight transit nowadays is multidimensional. It's not only the difference in consignment notes, different gauges, it's also the lack of any high value export from the CIS countries other than bulk. It also a lack of clear price policy by RZD, Its also Russias big sea ports upgrade programme. Its also the fact that sea freight on Asia - Europe routes is 10 times cheaper than rail. Again - Słaków and PKP LHS, their situation is saying much about being dependent on East - West traffic.

Frankly speaking it would be much easier to implement a common boogie exchanges system (like SUW), implement a common pricing agreement and statr selling it. But it;s not that simple.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 02:42 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
The most interesting stretch for the traffic Europe–Asia is the Transsib. The Transsib is in a better shape than most stretches in Slovakia, Poland etc. and in a better shape than many stretches in Germany, France, Spain etc.
The problem is the organisation of the traffic, not the Vmax of the Transsib.
Of course, I don't think Transsib is in worse condition than railways in Slovakia or Poland. That's why I was talking about average speed (including time when the trains are stopped). For freight trains high maximal speed isn't important. Important is capacity of the railway, traffic organisation, maybe some additional services and so on.

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Originally Posted by rmcee View Post
We'll actually if it is a politically driven project, then it would be hard to impose higher tariffs.

Also I don't think ZSSK Cargo would benefit from it as a hauler. It sounds reasonable to have one line an as little loco changes as possible.

The problem with East - West freight transit nowadays is multidimensional. It's not only the difference in consignment notes, different gauges, it's also the lack of any high value export from the CIS countries other than bulk. It also a lack of clear price policy by RZD, Its also Russias big sea ports upgrade programme. Its also the fact that sea freight on Asia - Europe routes is 10 times cheaper than rail. Again - Słaków and PKP LHS, their situation is saying much about being dependent on East - West traffic.

Frankly speaking it would be much easier to implement a common boogie exchanges system (like SUW), implement a common pricing agreement and statr selling it. But it;s not that simple.
Even if it's politically driven project it should be economically reasonable for all countries participating on it.

I don't know if ZSSK Cargo will participate on this transport. Now it's project of ŽSR (railway administrator), not ZSSK Cargo (freight operator).

As was said before, main problem of Asia - Europe transport on rails isn't missing 500 km of wide gauge railway between Košice and Vienna. There are also other problems which must be solved.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 04:17 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by mgk920 View Post
Also, conversely, is there any potential for a standard gauge line to be built into Russia (ie, a freight line from western Europe, perhaps Rotterdam or a TGV/ICE line, to Moscow and/or Saint Petersburg)?

Mike
With today's technology is not cost-effective high-speed for the distance over 1000km.

Why Russia (and Ukraina) need to change them standards, when they have more freight traffic on railways then all Europe together? Soviet standard are higher then UIC like:
- automatic buffers
- long stations tracks for 1000m+ trains and 10.000t.
- axle load 30t (Europe 16t-22,5t)
- better free profill (can put more freight)

Condition of the Russian and Ukraina railways main lines is much better then in Hungary, Serbia and Croatia. There are not lates of passenger trains more then 15min. At RŽD there are nor more then 1-2 low speed zones on 1000km on main lines, for example. Russian railways are in world top of enything then high speed. Someone who had never been in Russia... For example, I have never be in Poland, and have never travel by Poland railways, do not spoke with any Poland railwayer, do not visited any technical facilities, and do not write only read. But all of that I do in Russia, Srebia, Croatia and Hungary.

It is better to find and read something from Russians, but there is one problem: very bad Russian knowledge of English.

Last edited by Rail_Serbia; June 3rd, 2009 at 04:20 PM. Reason: Gramatical mistakes
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 04:40 PM   #507
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You can hardly say anything about the future volumes to be transported on this line. There are no estimations. And IMHO the current level of volumes transshiped in the mentioed terminas (Sławków, Zahony, Cierna nad Tissou) does indicate the future of this project is disputable. What will Slovakia earn if ZSSK is not involved? It would be much better to focus on the CD Cargo - ZSSK Cargo merger...
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 05:37 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by rmcee View Post
You can hardly say anything about the future volumes to be transported on this line. There are no estimations. And IMHO the current level of volumes transshiped in the mentioed terminas (Sławków, Zahony, Cierna nad Tissou) does indicate the future of this project is disputable. What will Slovakia earn if ZSSK is not involved? It would be much better to focus on the CD Cargo - ZSSK Cargo merger...
Current volumes of cargo in transshipment terminals are affected by the crisis, which won't last forever. This extension is not going to be built tomorrow. The volumes before the crisis are irrelevant too because this project is aimed mainly on transportation of cargo which is now transported by the ships.

I obviously don't know how much cargo will be transported there. Some experts say overall volume of cargo transported on the new railway must be at least 20 million tons a year to make the project viable.

I also don't know whether ZSSK Cargo will be involved, but it would probably require purchase of new broad gauge rolling stock.

Merger of ČD Cargo and ZSSK Cargo is dead for now. It don't have any political support.

Last edited by Qwert; June 3rd, 2009 at 05:45 PM.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 07:53 PM   #509
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Yeah it's more cheap to change 225000 kms of Russian gauge to UIC even on permafrost or Siberian lands.
who said anything about changing the gauge in russia? and its not two HUNDRED thousand kms, its just in the ballpark of 10.000 that needs speed improvement

compare that to the improvement in speed on ~500 kms...
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 07:56 PM   #510
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lets not lose sight of the fact that they are talking about 5++ BILLION USD here

from that kind of money, they could easily develop
- new/modified containers
- standardized trainsets (length mainly)
- a completely automatic laser guided crane system to move the containers from one train to another like a caterpillar

problem solved

i bet they could do this from 500 million or less
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Old June 4th, 2009, 09:02 AM   #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rail_Serbia View Post
With today's technology is not cost-effective high-speed for the distance over 1000km.

Why Russia (and Ukraina) need to change them standards, when they have more freight traffic on railways then all Europe together? Soviet standard are higher then UIC like:
- automatic buffers
- long stations tracks for 1000m+ trains and 10.000t.
- axle load 30t (Europe 16t-22,5t)
- better free profill (can put more freight)

Condition of the Russian and Ukraina railways main lines is much better then in Hungary, Serbia and Croatia. There are not lates of passenger trains more then 15min. At RŽD there are nor more then 1-2 low speed zones on 1000km on main lines, for example. Russian railways are in world top of enything then high speed. Someone who had never been in Russia... For example, I have never be in Poland, and have never travel by Poland railways, do not spoke with any Poland railwayer, do not visited any technical facilities, and do not write only read. But all of that I do in Russia, Srebia, Croatia and Hungary.

It is better to find and read something from Russians, but there is one problem: very bad Russian knowledge of English.
I agree that the European standard-gauge lines that use the 'buffer and chain' coupling standard are very deficient in those regards, including their ridiculously small loading gauge. OTOH, I consider it to be a real 'too bad' thing that Russian and Chinese railroads cannot directly interchange. China's standards are virtually identical to those of North America - 1435 mm 'standard' track gauge, similar axle loading to Russia (North American railcars can max out at about 32t/axle on most lines) and automatic couplers ('AAR type E') that are incompatible with and even stronger than those of Russia. 14.000t coal trains with locomotives only in the front are standard operating procedure throughout North America. Loading gauge is such that most lines in North America can also handle double-stacked containers.

Is there any possibility of using fast gauge-changing wheelsets for cross-border traffic, such as those used at the French-Spanish border? (I recall hearing not long ago that Spain is planning to regauge its broad-gauge lines to 1435 mm standard gauge, too.)

Mike
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Old June 4th, 2009, 11:27 AM   #512
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Is there any possibility of using fast gauge-changing wheelsets for cross-border traffic, such as those used at the French-Spanish border? (I recall hearing not long ago that Spain is planning to regauge its broad-gauge lines to 1435 mm standard gauge, too.)
Of course there is! SUW 2000, in the past operational on Warsaw Moscow line, soon to come back on Kraków - Kiev.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUW_2000

The system is complete and efficient, the problem is that there are many parties involved in ownership rights as well as there has to be both countries involved will to implement it. The history of SUW 200 struggle is long and worth knowing.

Soon more about it in Railway Market - CEE Review.

In the meantime:

"Poland, Ukraine: New railway link launched
From Monday passengers will have a chance to purchase tickets for the new train of Ukrainian Railways. It will operate on the railway line between Lviv and Wrocław through Kraków.

Ukrzaliznytsa and PKP want also to shorten the time of travel between Warsaw and Kiev thanks to the SUW 2000 system.

Train from Lviv to Wrocław will be launched on May 31. It will be equipped with the automatic rail car system suitable for different kinds of gauge. In Summer SUW 2000 will be tested on the Kiev - Warsaw route. The current time of travel is 17 hours."


http://www.railwaymarket.eu/archiwum...k+launched.htm
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Old June 4th, 2009, 09:24 PM   #513
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The big problem with such systems is that they are only really practical for use in passenger services as it would simply be too expensive to fit such wheelsets onto all of the freight cars that would otherwise be used if that gauge break wasn't there.

----------------

A bit off-topic for this thread, but looking ahead, somewhat fancifully I assume, too, is that should the oft-discussed idea of a railroad tunnel between Russia and the USA (Alaska) under the Bering Strait ever happen will come the real question of 'Should this crossing be built, what railroad standard would or should be used in it?'. A transfer yard near the crossing (or even at a major inland terminal) will be too time-consuming and labor-intensive operate (and in a very remote locale with a BRUTAL climate!) - thus rendering the crossing non-competitive and it will be prohibitively expensive to fit all of the freight cars that would use it with dual-gauge wheelsets (not to mention the incompatible coupling systems used by the two sides).

One factor that I have not heard discussed yet regarding this - if China (their railroads are fully compatible with those of North America) would get involved as a financing partner, I would pretty much expect it all to be built as standard gauge/type E at least between the strait and their network, along with a new and/or regauged standard-gauge mainline likely extending well westward into at least central Russia.

This is NOT a minor issue.

Mike

Last edited by mgk920; June 4th, 2009 at 09:30 PM.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 09:31 PM   #514
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why is it inconcievable to construct an automated lazer-guided crane system to lift the containers from one train onto the other in a matter of minutes without human interaction?
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Old June 5th, 2009, 11:23 AM   #515
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Originally Posted by mgk920 View Post
[…]
One factor that I have not heard discussed yet regarding this - if China (their railroads are fully compatible with those of North America) would get involved as a financing partner, I would pretty much expect it all to be built as standard gauge/type E at least between the strait and their network, along with a new and/or regauged standard-gauge mainline likely extending well westward into at least central Russia.

This is NOT a minor issue.

Mike
I don't think so. Russia would build such a stretch in broad gauge, it would make no sense for Russia to build standard gauge.
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Old June 6th, 2009, 05:55 AM   #516
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I don't think so. Russia would build such a stretch in broad gauge, it would make no sense for Russia to build standard gauge.
Where, then, would you put the transfer yard, keeping in mind the extreme remoteness of the Bering Strait (especially on the Russian side) and its brutal Arctic climate?

Mike
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Old June 6th, 2009, 09:00 PM   #517
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Where, then, would you put the transfer yard, keeping in mind the extreme remoteness of the Bering Strait (especially on the Russian side) and its brutal Arctic climate?

Mike
To be honest, I don't think the tunnel will be built.
But if it will be built, then it would be more convenient to develop a solution for this climate, than to rebuild thousands of kilometers of existing lines.
On the other hand, if the American side is not as remote, why not change gauge there?
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Old June 7th, 2009, 01:12 AM   #518
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Maybe you can create a thread about tunnel/bridge through Bering strait instead of spoiling this thread.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 11:53 AM   #519
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we mentioned Zahony, Sławków...

A Cargo Service Centre is planned in Moldova in order to serve transit movements from Europe to the Caucasus and Central Asia.

05.06.2009 (15:36)
The opportunity to create such a center was discussed at a meeting of the Moldova Transport Agency Director,Vasily Botnar, with experts from the Europe-Caucasus-Asia Development of Transport Agency (TRACECA), Andreas Shen and Michel Prouzet.

Negotiations will continue after Moldova presents the TRACECA experts with a full package of documents defining and explaining the advantages of locating such a centre in Moldova, such as the good geopolitical location of the country and a suitable legislative basis. TRACECA experts are empowered by the European Commission to choose a region in the Balkans to create such a Logistical Center which is to be constructed using European funding.

The framework agreement to develop the transport corridor "Europe - Caucasus - Asia" was signed 10 years ago by Moldova, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kirghizia, Romania, Turkey, Tajikistan, Ukraine and Uzbekistan. In 2008 53 million tons of cargo was transported through the TRACECA transport corridor. Transit movements grew by 10% -15% every year.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 02:46 PM   #520
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Imre Kovács, deputy CEO of MÁV Cargo, asked by Railway Market - CEE Review about the threat of the Slovakian wide gauge to Hungarian Záhony says:

In my opinion, this project has not yet been decided even in Slovakia. However, it does not affect significantly either the BILK, or the Záhony volumes. It would just rather put an end to the Eastern Slovakian Cierna nad Tisou traffic. I see that it is very unlikely that let’s say Dunaferr would direct its Dunaújváros import volumes from Záhony to a much longer route.

Interview in the June issue of Railway Market - CEE Review
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