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Old April 24th, 2010, 10:52 PM   #621
Maarten Otto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozatellac View Post
First, London and continental Europe are not in the same time zone, so that would rather be 5:00 Amsterdam, 7:45 London time.
Sorry but Amsterdam has been GMT +1 for ages I believe...
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Old April 24th, 2010, 11:57 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by Maarten Otto View Post
Sorry but Amsterdam has been GMT +1 for ages I believe...
Yes, Amsterdam is GMT + 1 in the winter when the UK is GMT, and GMT + 2 in the summer when the UK is GMT + 1, so Amsterdam is consistently one hour ahead of London, right?
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Old April 25th, 2010, 05:02 AM   #623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten Otto View Post
What if there were three daily direct services between London and Amsterdam taking aprox. 4 hours for the complete journey... (City centre to City centre) would you board the train?


Specification:
- Regulation: Open Acces
- Train type: Siemens Velaro (better knows as ICE 3)
- Service pattern: Morning, afternoon, evening (both ways)
- Intermediate calling points: Ashford (board only), Lille, Rotterdam (Alight only), Amsterdam (Alight only)
- Fare structure: Same as airlines do with a single starting at 49 pounds one way.
- Service level: Tea and coffee is for free on first and standard class, first class get 3 course meal at seat (included in price)

Train times: All times in local time
London to Amsterdam:
London Departures: 0700, 1230, 1800
Ashford Departures: 0730, 1300, 1830
Lille Arrivals/Departures: 0930, 1500, 2030
Rotterdam Arrivals: 1120, 1650, 2220
Amsterdam Arrivals: 1200, 1730, 2300

Amsterdam to London:
Amsterdam Departures: 0700, 1330, 1900
Rotterdam Departures: 0740, 1410, 1940
Lille Arrivals/Departures: 0940, 1610, 2140
Ashford Arrivals: 0930, 1600, 2130
London Arrivals: 0955, 1625, 2155


First London departure can be done at 0600 aswell if proven to be more popular

Would you use the service... and what do you think the maximum fare for a one way ticket should be?
You need trains that can pass inside the eurotunnel ... so unless you build some NEW trains you get stuck with the eurostar Trainsets.

ANY new train HAS TO follow the same fire/crash proof standards as the current trains and this doesn't make MANDATORY any kind/brand of train ... purchase some Mitsubishi if you like ... just take into acount that they MUSt have that same security measures aplied.

train times:
??? forget those 3 traisn a day ... at least HOURLY departures in each direction.

travel time:
London-Folkestone = 25/30 minutes
under the tunnel = 20 minutes
Calais-Lille = 20 minutes
Lille-Brussels = 20 minutes
Brussels-Antwerpen = 25/30 minutes
Antwerpen-roterdham = 20 minutes
Roterdham-schiphol = 10 minutes
Schiphol-Amesterdam = 10 minutes

150/160 minutes= 2h30/3h ...

There are 550km (more or less) between london and amesterdam ... semi-direct trains under 3h are completelly doable in that corridor.

give 5 extra minutes to any stop and you continue to fall a great deal below the 4h mark you set.


London-Bruxelles-Koln 2tph
London-Bruxelles-Amesterdam 2tph
= London-Bruxelles 4tph


what's the capacity of the eurotunnel ???
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Last edited by sotavento; April 25th, 2010 at 05:12 AM.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 05:12 AM   #624
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
You need trains that can pass inside the eurotunnel ... so unless you build some NEW trains you get stuck with the eurostar Trainsets.

ANY new train HAS TO follow the same fire/crash proof standards as the current trains and this doesn't make MANDATORY any kind/brand of train ... purchase some Mitsubishi if you like ... just take into acount that they MUSt have that same security measures aplied.
Not for long, my friend: Channel Tunnel working group investigates shorter trains.

As for your schedule, it seems overly optimistic to me: the fastest eurostar service between London and Bruxelles-Midi took 1h51' in 2007. By using more powerful trainsets, the route can -maybe- be done in 1h48'. I don't know enough about the Bruxelles - Amsterdam route to comment.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 05:15 AM   #625
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[QUOTE=Suburbanist;55685977]I think the lowest journey time possible assuming HSL Zuid is open would be 4h30. The problem is that, even more than London-Paris route, the "land" AMS-LON route is far longer than the air route.

Finally, as a practical matter, British immigration would have to set up booths in Amsterdam and Rotterdam AND (more difficult) NS would have to build dedicated, non-shared and physically segregated platforms as UK is not part of the Schengen area and has the policy to accept inbound trains only if passengers are processed before boarding on the continent.[/QUOT

Reserve 1 or 2 platforms in Amesterdam central , roterdam and Bruxelles to this sort of traffic ... strangelly enough the spanish AVE of Renfe have the same procedures in NATIONAL long distance trains.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old April 25th, 2010, 05:18 AM   #626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten Otto View Post
The reason for not calling in Brussels and Antwerp is due to "Open Acces" regulations which indicate that ANY one is allowed to run trains from ANY station to ANY station aslong as the Train Operating Company (TOC) wich has a contract (in this case Eurostar) doesn't serve the same route and wouldn't lose (too many) ridership. Antwerp is a point of debate Becouse Antwerp does contribute a significant numbers of Eurostar customers.

The number of Dutch people using Eurostar is below 1% since the service started more then ten years ago.
Or you could "codeshare" with eurostar and carry their passengers for them in those trains.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
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Old April 25th, 2010, 05:31 AM   #627
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Originally Posted by Stainless View Post
Sorry, forgot that Rotterdam was between Amsterdam and Brussels. A train that stops in Rotterdam also would be good, but remember that for the time being at least, you need to set up British immigration points at each station the train picks up passengers. I think an Amsterdam-Rotterdam-London service would work well, it would have to run Amsterdam-Rotterdam half empty though as not many people would go through UK immigration to do a domestic journey in the Netherlands. But compared to the whole journey that is not much, but It would save a lot of time not stopping at Brussels which already has Eurostar.

Filling up a high speed train in a few medium sized cities before doing a large non-stop section before emptying the train in a large city seems the ideal HSR business model to me as smaller cities can be served by a frequent service.
The best of any open acess operation.


Pick up people one side of the chanell ... leave them in the oposite side ...


birmingham, manchester, Liverpool (?), + London & ashford = pich up people
Lille , Bruxelles , Roterdam , Schipoll , amesterdam = dump them there

the oposite in the other direction.


all of these intermediate routes would indeed be served by their local HSR operators.


If you can somehow createa "codesharing" agreement then you just add a Thalys LBA to the others ...
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

Last edited by sotavento; April 25th, 2010 at 05:42 AM.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 07:34 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Reserve 1 or 2 platforms in Amesterdam central , roterdam and Bruxelles to this sort of traffic ...
Platforms 1&2 at Brussel Zuid are already reserved for "this sort of traffic", but the problem is that these tracks are inaccessible from the North. So that would mean that a Eurostar from Amsterdam would have to take the deviation route around Brussel, and reverse at Brussel Zuid.

Quote:
strangely enough the spanish AVE of Renfe have the same procedures in NATIONAL long distance trains.
They are crazy. A big advantage of trains is the absence of meaningless security theatre. Voluntarily giving up that advantage is foolish.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 12:06 PM   #629
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I don't understand where the Lille - Brussels in 20 minutes comes from... At 300 km'h it takes you 40 minutes by Eurostar. I calculated the same timings to allow for a bit of slack time.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 01:42 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by SagaCity View Post

added: Waterloo International is not being used at the moment - I think it would make an ideal terminal for international sleeper train services from London.

I've also been thinking along the same lines. Waterloo would in effect become the Paris-Bercy of London.

What are your thoughts on these options?

1. London-Berlin
2. London-Zurich
3. London-Frankfurt

Does anyone have any idea as to how much a sleeper car costs to build these days?
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Old April 25th, 2010, 03:29 PM   #631
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Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
I'm sure they'll be more than enough people willing to watch the world go by out of a train window.
It is often impossible as nearly all modern trains have seats placed near the walls and not by the windows. This is incredibly stupid and claustrophobic (at least for me).
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Old April 25th, 2010, 05:42 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
strangelly enough the spanish AVE of Renfe have the same procedures in NATIONAL long distance trains.
Those Spain's controls are for anti-terrorism purposes. I think all high-speed trains in Europe should have airport-like security prior to boarding like in Spain, but it seems this measure are not in favor with operator in other countries.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 07:20 PM   #633
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Originally Posted by mozatellac View Post
Second, have you ever been on a modern sleeper train, and made the comparison with an economy-class flight? In my European experience (in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, set aside France where sleeper trains are effectively crappy), there is no possible comparison. I can sleep in a sleeper train, not in an economy-class plane seat.
I dont mean to single you out, but this is an absolutely rediculous comparison. Of course the economy seat is less comfortable, but remember that you wont be sitting there for very long. What takes a sleeper train 8 hours can be done on a plane in 75 minutes. Lets not compare comfort on a train from Paris to Madrid with a long haul flight from London to Hong Kong...
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Old April 25th, 2010, 10:37 PM   #634
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Those Spain's controls are for anti-terrorism purposes. I think all high-speed trains in Europe should have airport-like security prior to boarding like in Spain, but it seems this measure are not in favor with operator in other countries.
It would be useless...
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Old April 25th, 2010, 10:42 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
I've also been thinking along the same lines. Waterloo would in effect become the Paris-Bercy of London.

What are your thoughts on these options?

1. London-Berlin
2. London-Zurich
3. London-Frankfurt

Does anyone have any idea as to how much a sleeper car costs to build these days?
London-Berlin would definitely be a winner. The Berlin-Paris night train used to be packed, the most successful night train I've seen, and it used to cough up a number of customers in Brussels on the way, who would then more asleep then awake make their way through Eurostar's cumbersome check-in in the early morning. Thanks to DB's stupid rerouting of the train, this option is now dead, but if somebody would offer a direct service and not too awful prices, I am sure it would be popular. At ICE/Eurostar speeds, a direct run would take 8 1/2 hours, an ideal span for a nap, at conventional (200 km/h) speeds, it would still get you there in good time.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 08:48 AM   #636
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London-Berlin would definitely be a winner. The Berlin-Paris night train used to be packed, the most successful night train I've seen, and it used to cough up a number of customers in Brussels on the way, who would then more asleep then awake make their way through Eurostar's cumbersome check-in in the early morning. Thanks to DB's stupid rerouting of the train, this option is now dead,

It's not "DB's stupid rerouting", it's the NMBS that basically kicked the train of their network. Hopefully it will return once the trade unions have accepted that open access is here to stay.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 08:51 AM   #637
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Those Spain's controls are for anti-terrorism purposes. I think all high-speed trains in Europe should have airport-like security prior to boarding like in Spain, but it seems this measure are not in favor with operator in other countries.
Yeah, we've seen how useful these anti terrorism measures are... Please save us from having the same meaningless security theatre on trains. It does not serve any purpose whatsoever.
Just admit it. You want to impose arbitrary restrictions on rail so it has a higher chance to fail.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 10:28 AM   #638
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It is often impossible as nearly all modern trains have seats placed near the walls and not by the windows. This is incredibly stupid and claustrophobic (at least for me).
I thought it was only for the British market that the train designers chose to forget about coordinating seats with windows.

You mean to tell me that even in Switzerland, which is where you're from I see, the same situation is true?
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Old April 26th, 2010, 10:38 AM   #639
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I thought it was only for the British market that the train designers chose to forget about coordinating seats with windows.
It's more a question of those responsible for the railway car's structure putting in X windows, and the interior designers being asked by the railway company to put in (2X)+1 rows of seats...

Quote:
You mean to tell me that even in Switzerland, which is where you're from I see, the same situation is true?
In Switzerland it's not really an issue with SBB stock, as that mostly uses "viz a viz" seating, nicely lined up with the windows. The problem exists with some foreign stock running in Switzerland.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 11:23 AM   #640
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Nearly all trains in Spain and France (and at least the German ICE 1-2-3) have blind seats. In Switzerland only the ETR 610 has a few nearly blind seats, unlike the similar ETR 600 that has much of them (both types of trains are New Pendolino with the same length and the same number of seats, one approved in Switzerland and Italy, the second only in Italy, the difference being that in the 610 the seats line up with windows, a clear demonstration that placing seats near windows don't mean a reduction in capacity).
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