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Old August 10th, 2010, 07:44 PM   #761
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
However why should the arrangements that work at other Schengen borders not work at the UK border?
Because UK is not part of Schengen and is a destination-of-choice of a disproportional share of potential illegal immigrants. They are in the middle of an immigration crisis.

Seriously, I just think like this: TODAY, illegals are already using or trying to use deceptive and life-threatening tactics like hiding under trucks, near moving parts, they used to jump on freight trains (with occasional deaths) near Calais, they sometimes make desperate attempts to cross the Channel by home-made boats (that France doesn't deport those people is another story).

I just imagine if, like many suggest, British border controls existed only onboard, as many suggest. First, we'd need technology to connect the officers onboard with real-time notepads, as they are all now integrated with Frontex sharing real time info on terrorists, people who are banned from crossing into UK and/or EU for previous overstaying/denial of visa/residence permit, deportees and so on. But that is still manageable, though expensive.

Now think how would immigration officers handle these people onboard, some of them having made expensive (in terms of their little income) overland journeys from Asia, from instance, now a few minutes from "promise land" and their ethnic communities in UK where they expect to fit in and feed their children, and they are told they will be arrested and denied entry onboard.

It seems a very, very awkward, disruptive and potentially dangerous situation to me, don't you think? What if they start vandalizing the train or fighting? What if they make desperate attempts like trying to open a door or broke a window? Will each Eurostar have its own "pre-deporation holding area" like international airports? It can become an ugly situation.

There are two possible solutions, consider UK will NOT join Schengen (they have many other reasons, providing an easier train service is not enough of an incentive)

(1) install post-arrival checks. British officers would no longer be required at departure points for UK-bound trains. Each country would staff it's own stations with customs officers only, like if stations were airports.

(2) they decide to turn a blind-eye and make Eurostar (or whatever transchannel service) a sort-of uncontrolled route, like if it were a domestic route in Britain (an illegal immigrant can easily use a train from London to Manchester without being caught, as there are no permanent staff to check identities of those using domestic trains).
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Old August 11th, 2010, 08:51 AM   #762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Because UK is not part of Schengen and is a destination-of-choice of a disproportional share of potential illegal immigrants. They are in the middle of an immigration crisis.
I'll refrase: Why should arrangements that worked perfectly at other borders before the Schengen treaty not work at the UK border. Why would what works at ferries not work at the UK border? After all there are other train services that cross UK borders, with far less hassle.

Quote:
(1) install post-arrival checks. British officers would no longer be required at departure points for UK-bound trains. Each country would staff it's own stations with customs officers only, like if stations were airports.
That's the best option.
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Old August 11th, 2010, 03:47 PM   #763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I'll refrase: Why should arrangements that worked perfectly at other borders before the Schengen treaty not work at the UK border. Why would what works at ferries not work at the UK border? After all there are other train services that cross UK borders, with far less hassle.


That's the best option.
I will assume you meant EU borders as the only other train to cross UK borders is the Enterprise into Ireland, which is in a customs union with the UK. Other train services I have used into and out of the EU stop at the border so anyone denied entry is easily removed, which often takes a while. Doing that with the channel tunnel would stop it being a 'high speed' service.
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Old August 11th, 2010, 03:58 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by Stainless View Post
I will assume you meant EU borders as the only other train to cross UK borders is the Enterprise into Ireland, which is in a customs union with the UK. Other train services I have used into and out of the EU stop at the border so anyone denied entry is easily removed, which often takes a while. Doing that with the channel tunnel would stop it being a 'high speed' service.
I traveled many times into and out-of the EU on a train without stopping.
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Old August 11th, 2010, 04:43 PM   #765
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I traveled many times into and out-of the EU on a train without stopping.
Obviously with Switzerland it is a bit different, especially as you are now in the Schengen area and before you were surrounded by it. It is the external borders to the east they often stop the train at. Although most land borders offer more attractive illegal crossing points than a sea crossing.
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Old August 11th, 2010, 04:49 PM   #766
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But UK/France isn't an an external border either, it's exactly the same as Switzerland was before it joined Schengen.
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Old August 11th, 2010, 06:59 PM   #767
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If you ask me some people are overly afraid of illegal immigrants. How would immigrants get to Amsterdam in the first place, they can not just enter Europe at will (far from it). I think it is reasonable that you have to show your passport when you enter the UK and I do not see you need more to stop an immigrant. Why don't they just build a sort of train terminal in Londen where they receive trains from the continent.
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Old August 11th, 2010, 07:14 PM   #768
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If you ask me some people are overly afraid of illegal immigrants. How would immigrants get to Amsterdam in the first place, they can not just enter Europe at will (far from it). I think it is reasonable that you have to show your passport when you enter the UK and I do not see you need more to stop an immigrant. Why don't they just build a sort of train terminal in Londen where they receive trains from the continent.
They already have one: St. Pancras International. They had other before: Waterloo International. You don't need only to show your passport, you need also (if you are from outside EU) to undergo an interview with British Border Protection officers.

The real problem is not in UK, but in the continent: passengers coming from UK would have to be scanned/interviewed by the immigration/customs officers in the country they are arriving. So they'd have to set up border inspection in every station where such UK-out or inbound services are calling, or establish a permanent control passport zone in Calais or elsewhere in France where these trains would be stopped.

A compromise solution would involve scanning UK-bound passengers and St. Pancras and having French customs' officers scanning continental-bound passengers at St. Pancras. But that would create an asymmetry.
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Old August 11th, 2010, 11:01 PM   #769
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Euhmmm... Continent-bound passengers are checked by French customs at St. Pancras already. Also passengers to Brussels are checked by French gendarmerie at St. Pancras, even if their train doesn't stop in France.
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Old August 11th, 2010, 11:38 PM   #770
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The real problem is, that the British don't want people to travel through the Channal without being 'properly' checked on the continent.

It would be a breakthrough if we could agree that all border patrols are jointly done in St Pancras, Ebbsfleet and Ashford for people boarding or aligning.
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Old August 12th, 2010, 12:04 AM   #771
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Euhmmm... Continent-bound passengers are checked by French customs at St. Pancras already. Also passengers to Brussels are checked by French gendarmerie at St. Pancras, even if their train doesn't stop in France.
To have the French check Belgium-bound passengers is normal. It is like a passenger flying Boston - Lisboa - Roma. The Portuguese will "deplane" and grant entry to the non-Schengen arrival and the Lisboa - Roma journey will be a domestic one.

The "catch" is that the plane (and passenger) first stops in Portuguese soil.
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Old August 12th, 2010, 08:17 AM   #772
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Yeah, but a solution would be to extend Schengen to the International part of the St.Pancras station. It would be de jure Schengen soil.
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Old August 12th, 2010, 09:18 AM   #773
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Yeah, but a solution would be to extend Schengen to the International part of the St.Pancras station. It would be de jure Schengen soil.
Indeed. A bit like the way the French sections of Basel and Geneva operated before Switzerland joined Schengen.
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Old September 27th, 2010, 09:39 PM   #774
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Moscow-Nice new train service

Quote:
Un train de luxe relie désormais Moscou à Nice


Par FX M François Xavier Moran

27/09/2010

Samedi soir en gare de Nice, une centaine de Russes embarqués jeudi à Moscou ont été accueillis par le maire Christian Estrosi.
Ce dimanche soir, des Français sont partis vers la Russie pour un périple de 3318 kilomètres.



Samedi soir en gare de Nice, une centaine de Russes embarqués jeudi à Moscou ont été accueillis par le maire Christian Estrosi.

La première liaison ferroviaire commerciale directe entre la capitale russe et la Côte d'Azur a été inaugurée samedi. Ils sont arrivés avec une bonne demi-heure de retard. Une broutille à leurs yeux, après 53 heures passées à bord du train. Samedi soir en gare de Nice, une centaine de Russes embarqués jeudi à Moscou ont été accueillis en héros avec fanfare, petits-fours et allocutions officielles. Une réception à la hauteur de l'événement puisque ces voyageurs ont inauguré la liaison directe hebdomadaire entre Moscou et Nice. Le convoi de douze voitures traverse pas moins de cinq pays (Biélorussie, Pologne, République tchèque, Autriche et Italie), suivant un périple de 3318 kilomètres.

En classe luxe, deux passagers par compartiment disposent d'un lit chacun, d'un cabinet de toilette et d'un téléviseur à écran plat. Sans compter un bar dans chaque voiture, où il ne manque guère que le Wi-Fi. En seconde et en première, où les tarifs sont plus accessibles (respectivement 306 € et 459 € l'aller contre 1050 € en classe luxe), les passagers parviennent à destination frais et dispos. «Ce voyage a été extraordinaire, témoigne Frédéric Pardé, chargé de mission à la SNCF, venu accompagner ces pionniers. En avion, on se déplace d'un point à un autre, là, on voyage. On prend le temps de lire, de discuter au wagon-restaurant. À l'arrivée, on est presque triste de descendre du train!»


29 arrêts sur la ligne

Exceptionnelle par sa durée et son ambiance, cette liaison l'est aussi sur le plan technique. À chaque pays traversé la locomotive change. À la frontière entre la Biélorussie et la Pologne, ce sont même les roues et l'attelage qu'il faut modifier, en raison des différences d'écartement des essieux, soit deux heures d'attente… Tout au long du trajet, des arrêts commerciaux sont prévus, 29 au total, pour descendre à Varsovie, Vienne, Innsbruck ou Menton. Le train quitte Moscou chaque jeudi, avant d'effectuer, le dimanche, le trajet en sens inverse. Ce dimanche soir, les premiers Français se sont offert cette traversée de l'Europe. Ils arriveront mardi à bon port à 23 heures locales.

L'idée de cette ligne a été lancée il y a deux ans par le président des chemins de fer russes, Vladimir Yakounine. Pour les Russes, cette desserte s'inscrit dans un plan plus large visant à renforcer leurs lignes continentales. La liaison Paris-Moscou, qui se limite aujourd'hui à une voiture tous les deux jours, pourrait redevenir une ligne à part entière. La SNCF, sous-traitante sur la portion Vintimille-Nice du trajet, observe prudemment ces débuts. «On les a accompagnés sans investissement majeur, précise Frédéric Pardé. Le train de nuit, nous ne le pratiquons plus beaucoup. Le test est intéressant.» Car si les Russes sont, eux, habitués aux trajets longue distance, rien ne dit que les Français vont se remettre aux joies du train couchette pour s'offrir un Noël sur la place Rouge…
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fra...cou-a-nice.php

Google translation

Quote:
A luxury train now connects Moscow to Nice



By FX M Moran Francis Xavier
27/09/2010 |


The first commercial direct rail link between the Russian capital and Côte d'Azur was inaugurated on Saturday. They arrived with half an hour late. A trifle to them after 53 hours spent on the train. Saturday night in Nice station, hundreds of Russians on board Thursday at Moscow were greeted as heroes with fanfare, petit fours and official speeches. A reception at the height of the event as these travelers have opened weekly direct link between Moscow and Nice. The convoy of twelve cars through no fewer than five countries (Belarus, Poland, Czech Republic, Austria and Italy), following a journey of 3318 km.

In class luxury, two passengers per compartment each have a bed, a bathroom and a flat screen TV. Besides a bar in each car, where he seldom fails than Wi-Fi In the second and first, where prices are more accessible (respectively € 306 € and 459 € 1050 going against the class luxury), the passengers reach their destination refreshed. "This trip has been extraordinary testament Pardé Frederick, project manager at the station, come support these pioneers. By plane, it moves from one point to another, then we travel. We take the time to read, discuss in the dining car. Upon arrival, it is almost sad to leave the train! "


29 stops on the line

Exceptional in its duration and atmosphere, this route is also technically. In each country crossed the locomotive changes. At the border between Belarus and Poland, they are even wheels and hitch needs to be changed, because of differences in axle spacing, two hours waiting ... Throughout the route, stops malls are planned, 29 in total, falling to Warsaw, Vienna, Innsbruck or Menton. The train leaves Moscow every Thursday to perform on Sunday, the journey in reverse. This Sunday evening, the first French have offered this trip to Europe. They will arrive safely on Tuesday at 23 am local time.

The idea of this line was launched two years ago by the president of Russian Railways, Vladimir Yakunin. For Russians, this route is part of a broader plan to strengthen their continental lines. The Paris-Moscow, which is now limited to one car every two days, could again become a fully fledged online. SNCF, a subcontractor on the portion of Ventimiglia-Nice route, observe carefully these beginnings. "We went along without major investment," says Frederick Pardé. The overnight train, we do not practice much. The test is interesting. "For if the Russians are themselves accustomed to long distance trips, nothing says that the French will get back to the joys of the sleeper train to afford a Christmas in Red Square ...
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Old September 27th, 2010, 09:42 PM   #775
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In French





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Old September 27th, 2010, 09:46 PM   #776
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In Russian



Quote:
Россия и Франция возобновили железнодорожное сообщение впервые за почти сто лет. В субботу вечером в Ниццу прибудет поезд из Москвы. Напомним, поезда из России в страны Средиземноморья прекратили ходить после революции 1917 года. Поэтому этот запуск называют историческим.
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Old September 27th, 2010, 09:49 PM   #777
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Severals different locos are used

Poland



Quote:
The film presents train from Moscow to Nice. First chapter has been recorded on railway station in Chybie (Poland) and second chapter has been recorded near station in Petrovice u Karvine after going trough polish-czech border by train.
Wien



Nice

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Old September 27th, 2010, 09:52 PM   #778
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Other loco

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Old September 27th, 2010, 09:53 PM   #779
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How are they doing for coaches between IUC and russian gauge ?
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Old September 27th, 2010, 11:10 PM   #780
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Like they do it between Spain and France, I suppose: lifting the whole body and replacing the bogies.
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