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Old December 8th, 2005, 02:15 AM   #61
Paulo2004
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Yes!!!!
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Old December 8th, 2005, 07:51 PM   #62
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Italians Protest Turin - Lyon HSR

Italian PM undeterred by mass protest over Lyon-Turin rail link

ROME, Dec 8 (AFP) - Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi on Thursday stuck to his guns over the need to build a high-speed rail link between Turin in Italy and Lyon in France, despite escalating protests.

Tens of thousands of demonstrators protesting against the railway occupied the site of the planned Alpine tunnel in Italy's northwestern Susa Valley.

Several people were injured in scuffles with police who fired tear gas, though security forces did not act to stop protesters entering the site at Venaus, some 60 kilometres (37 miles) from Turin.

About the same time as the protest was under way, Berlusconi voiced his determination at a press conference in the capital, Rome, to see the multi-billion-euro project come to fruition.

"The high-speed rail link is a job which it is impossible to give up on, and all the guarantees have been taken on the aspect of the environment," he told reporters.

The protesters were dislodged from the site on Tuesday in a police charge that injured about 20 people.

The government deployed 1,000 riot police to prevent the protestors occupying the site on Thursday, but Berlusconi's political allies were divided on whether they should intervene again.

Employment Minister Roberto Maroni, a member of the locally popular Northern League, spoke out against police action on Thursday and called for dialogue to solve the crisis.

A 53-kilometre (33-mile) cross-border train tunnel into France is to be cut through the valley, angering people living in the region who question the usefulness, cost and environmental consequences of the project.

While valley communities are sharply opposed, the proposed rail link is backed by both governments, the European Commission and the region of Piedmont.

Thursday's marchers numbered nearly 40,000, according to one participant, Gianandrea Torasso, a local mayor.

Earlier this week, opponents of the project blocked roads into the area and announced a national demonstration in Turin on December 17.

The Italian prime minister denounced what he called "the activism of extremist left-wing groups and anarchists" and promised to take action, although he also acknowledged there had been communication failures.

"You only have to think of the pollution caused by heavy goods vehicles to realise the interest of this rail link and to not call into question such a project," Berlusconi said.

Opponents denounce both the inconvenience and dangers of the project, especially for the water basin during tunneling into the mountain side because of the presence of uranium and asbestos.

Turin is to host the Winter Olympics in February 2006 and a massive security operation is already being planned.

The Turin-Lyon link, considered a key element of a planned network of high-speed railways across Europe, will cost an estimated 12.5 billion euros (15 billion dollars) and is due to be completed by 2020.

Six thousand trucks pass through the Susa Valley every day.

Two million trucks cross the Alps frontier between France and Italy every year. Freight traffic is forecast to grow to 80 million tonnes by 2030.

The aim is to increase the share transported by rail from 10 million to 40 million tonnes.
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Old December 8th, 2005, 08:14 PM   #63
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****** fools!
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Old December 8th, 2005, 08:34 PM   #64
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doesn't sound like the enivroment could be much more damaged with a HSR compared to 6000 trucks a day:P
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Old December 8th, 2005, 08:45 PM   #65
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Now it became a political issues with Green Party and Comunists (Partito della Rifondazione Comunista) enter the protests to have more space in their political coalition wing facing next year elections...
But Anarchic groups enter the protest and now situation degenerated

This is an incredible extreme exemple of NIMBY
But, political games apart, I suspect there is more behind the protests...
Infact the run of HS wich works are going to start had been concorded with local communities (the same now started the protest): initially railway had to run in the middle of the Valley, they modified (under the pressure and the suggestion of Valley inhabitants, now protesting) the project and made it run into a tunnel under the mountain (what is much more expensive...)
Now they contest this solution they suggested...

Why?

I have a suspect: someone wanted the project of 5th corridor passing South of the Alps to fail (for non-EU forumers: corridors decided and financed by EU are the "backbones" of future continental transport and trade; corridor 5 is the one wich will link Lisboa with Kiev: pratically the most important transcontinental route in East-West direction; if it will pass North of Alps the most improved nation will be Germany, if it will pass South it will be Italy. Italy obtained - "momentainely": iter is pretty long - corridor 5 passes South. But if infrastructuration as HS Turin-Lion track will be late could be probable, pratically sure, corridor 5 will "change" the route and pass North)
So: protests in Val di Susa are going to damage the project of corridor 5 passing in Italy
I really think there is any foreign societies behind today episodes: financing and organizing protest groups and even mouvements...

Anyway this extreme NIMBY protest maybe reached the record to be the most unpopular ever: non one in Italy (apart Greens, Comunist and Anarchic groups, very few people all things considered) out of Val di Susa agrees with this protest; and everybody think HS railway is prioritarian and necessary
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Old December 8th, 2005, 10:50 PM   #66
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Those fools don't represent italian people at all. But there's no need to fuss about it: Works will go on, no matter what people in that valley of Piedmont want.
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Old December 8th, 2005, 11:08 PM   #67
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The fun thing about this protests is that in France the public opinion is completely the opposite. They are more against all the trucks coming through part of the alps.
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Old December 9th, 2005, 12:04 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momochan
The fun thing about this protests is that in France the public opinion is completely the opposite. They are more against all the trucks coming through part of the alps.
In Italy 99% of pubblic opinion is in favour of HSR Turin-Lyon

The opponents are inhabitants of Val di Susa (that are no more than 50 k people, and someone says true opponents are not the major part of inhabitants) and people, as Anarchic groups, who like to make riots its political issue

Then, about the true reasons that IMO stand behind these protests: I exposed them in my previous post
And they've nothing to do with what was decleared officially by opponents...
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Old December 10th, 2005, 04:52 AM   #69
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Eurostar urges UK to Build North-South High-Speed Line

Eurostar urges UK to build north-south high-speed line
9 December 2005

LONDON (AFX) - High-speed train operator Eurostar has urged the UK government to approve the construction of a north-south high-speed rail line.

Eurostar, whose owners include British Airways PLC and National Express PLC, said a high-speed route between London and Scotland would cut journey times, reduce pollution and boost economic regeneration.

While Eurostar runs services at up to 185 mph on dedicated high-speed lines between London, Paris and Brussels, the maximum speed that trains on domestic UK lines can reach is 125 mph.

Chief executive Richard Brown told a rail and public transport conference in Glasgow that a new UK line would incentivise businesses to relocate offices out of the south east and into the UK's regions.

Brown said the construction of high-speed lines in France in the 1990s had transformed the economic fortunes of cities such as Lille and Lyon.

'A UK high-speed line would provide urban regeneration and, crucially, protect the environment by encouraging travellers to switch from carbon dioxide-producing short-haul flights to environmentally friendly rail,' he said.

French state railway SNCF, Belgian state rail operator SNCB and the Eurostar UK Ltd consortium run Eurostar. Eurostar UK Ltd consists of National Express Group PLC, SNCF, SNCB and British Airways PLC.
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Old December 10th, 2005, 01:34 PM   #70
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This would seem to be a total no-brainer - and incidentally I think such a project should veer towards the North West of England on it's way up in order to capture the greater population density in this region and help us to sustain the fantastic development growth we have.

The government will have no objection to this - but they wont want to pay much towards it, so there would have to be some very clever commercial partnering to make it happen.
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Old December 10th, 2005, 02:05 PM   #71
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If we could only build one line I'd go for:

London > Milton keynes > Birmingham > Manchester > Leeds > Newcastle > Edinburgh > Glasgow...

A sort of WCML / ECML hybrid

It would miss out major cities like Liverpool, Sheffield, Leicester, Nottingham (and of course Bristol, Plymouth etc) but I think if there was one trunk route, this should be it.
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Old December 10th, 2005, 02:30 PM   #72
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Maglev instead please - why build the past when you can build for the future ? London - Edinburgh 1hr10 anyone ? Better value by far ...
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Old December 10th, 2005, 03:52 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
If we could only build one line I'd go for:

London > Milton keynes > Birmingham > Manchester > Leeds > Newcastle > Edinburgh > Glasgow...

A sort of WCML / ECML hybrid

It would miss out major cities like Liverpool, Sheffield, Leicester, Nottingham (and of course Bristol, Plymouth etc) but I think if there was one trunk route, this should be it.

Of course Liverpool would be the largest city in the country not to have a Eurostar stop which merely adds to the trend of Liverpool being seen as a glorified Mancunian housing estate. To be fair, any line going to Liverpool has to terminate in the city but it's the fact the missing out of Liverpool will most certainly not be seen as an anomaly, as most of the influencial people in this country seem to think the city is a lot smaller and less significant, both economically and culturally, than it actually is. I'm sure they could spare the odd service to branch off at Crewe at least, even if it's frequency wasn't particlarly hight, it'd be better than nothing.
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Old December 10th, 2005, 04:53 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth
Of course Liverpool would be the largest city in the country not to have a Eurostar stop which merely adds to the trend of Liverpool being seen as a glorified Mancunian housing estate. To be fair, any line going to Liverpool has to terminate in the city but it's the fact the missing out of Liverpool will most certainly not be seen as an anomaly, as most of the influencial people in this country seem to think the city is a lot smaller and less significant, both economically and culturally, than it actually is. I'm sure they could spare the odd service to branch off at Crewe at least, even if it's frequency wasn't particlarly hight, it'd be better than nothing.
My executive decision is purely geographical, as you said Liverpool will always be the 'end of the line'. My route would be the trunk route from London to Scotland if there could only be the one line with no branches... Its nothing personal! Of course Liverpool is more significant than MK, it just so happens MK is between London and Birmingham and so could be on the trunk route.
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Old December 10th, 2005, 04:56 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth
Of course Liverpool would be the largest city in the country not to have a Eurostar stop which merely adds to the trend of Liverpool being seen as a glorified Mancunian housing estate. To be fair, any line going to Liverpool has to terminate in the city but it's the fact the missing out of Liverpool will most certainly not be seen as an anomaly, as most of the influencial people in this country seem to think the city is a lot smaller and less significant, both economically and culturally, than it actually is. I'm sure they could spare the odd service to branch off at Crewe at least, even if it's frequency wasn't particlarly hight, it'd be better than nothing.
Remember that next time you think being a coastal city is better than being a landlocked city
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Old December 10th, 2005, 08:58 PM   #76
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I'd prefer us to build a maglev but that's not going to happen with this government so I say go for it although again I don't think the government will go ahead with this considering its state of affairs with other transport networks.
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Old December 10th, 2005, 09:41 PM   #77
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Yes, and do it fast!!!!!!!!!
England lays behind in comparisson to other euro country's...
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Old December 11th, 2005, 01:48 AM   #78
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Quote:
Of course Liverpool would be the largest city in the country not to have a Eurostar stop which merely adds to the trend of Liverpool being seen as a glorified Mancunian housing estate. To be fair, any line going to Liverpool has to terminate in the city but it's the fact the missing out of Liverpool will most certainly not be seen as an anomaly, as most of the influencial people in this country seem to think the city is a lot smaller and less significant, both economically and culturally, than it actually is. I'm sure they could spare the odd service to branch off at Crewe at least, even if it's frequency wasn't particlarly hight, it'd be better than nothing.
Agree that Liverpool is unfairly often sidelined. I reckon a good way to resolve this is something we should be doing anyway - upgrading the Transpennine link. The whole Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds situation should be more like a conveyor belt with people not thinking twice about popping from one to the other. The new Eurostar line going straight up to Scotland via Manchester would then be within easy reach of Liverpool and Leeds, neither excluding the capital of culture, or needing to snake through the Penines to fit Leeds onto the 'calling at' list!
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Old December 11th, 2005, 01:51 AM   #79
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Quote:
Remember that next time you think being a coastal city is better than being a landlocked city.
What's with the anti-Manchester/Liverpool bias? Surely Preston can fit into a bigger vision for the whole NW without being the bitchy cousin of the two great cities?
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Old December 11th, 2005, 03:50 PM   #80
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Poor Sheffield would be missed too! What can ya do? Either way, it's definitely needed.
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