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Old September 29th, 2010, 01:10 AM   #801
Coccodrillo
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About the 30 minutes delay, there are heavy works on the short french section, where one of the two tracks is closed for several kilometres.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Who is going to pay more than € 400 to travel 54h? Let alone € 1000? With the latter, you can buy business class air tickets

In a nutshell: an expensive toys the Russian state company is using to promote itself in Europe. Don't think it will last, it is not adequate to remain 54h in a closed compartment.

It failed badly arriving 30min late on its first journey. A fiasco in terms of any train journey. Let's see how it goes on.

Meanwhile, I hope European governments keep an eye on the car's safety records, maintenance and so.
There are various variable gauge systems: Talgo, CAF, the SUW2000, MOB, a japanese one...some of them are already used between russian and standard gauge networks. The problem is their cost, say 50.000 € for a freight wagon and the same for a pair of variable gauge bogies. That's why the trains changing between 1435 and 1524 mm are only few experimental services, and why there are absolutely no freight trains doing that between 1668 and 1435 except a few Talgo's prototypes. All other freight trains tranship the goods or change bogies.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 01:31 AM   #802
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I looked at the Nice-Moscow schedule. For sake, it takes 11h to travel from Ventemiglia to Brennero - and it doesn't even stop at Milano Centrale -. Then, almost 8 hours from Innsbruck-Wien. Too slow IMO.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 01:35 AM   #803
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Maybe it could be accelerated a little, but nobody use it only to go from A to B. It's more a short cruise on rails instead of sea.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 01:50 AM   #804
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Might this news mean that Moscovites'll finally boot down their collective closet door?!?
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Old September 29th, 2010, 02:58 AM   #805
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In english



Quote:
New train route, longest in Europe - Moscow to Nice via Warsaw and Vienna. Travels through 7 countries.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 09:16 AM   #806
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When I first saw this thread I thought it was about a "nice new train service", somewhere around Moscow or so.
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Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Why then are all trans-siberian trains, that take even longer, packed to death
each summer ? And why do you have to reserve months in advance, and pay
$5000, to cross Siberia on board the Golden Eagle Express ? There are
countless other examples of the same thing. People board those trains the
same way they embark for a cruise.
Same for all long-distance Amtrak trains,
which are also often running full, even in seated class.
Yup, it's basically a land cruise. Less efficient, but more pleasant. Also sounds like a rather romantic way to start off a vacation near the Med. Clever idea.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 10:03 AM   #807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luli Pop View Post
why don't they use variable gauge rolling stock such as Talgo?
To be fair Talgo is "crap". Whole system is very expensive and can only be used with Talgo manufactured trains.
Polish SUW 2000 in that is case is better, SUW2000 boogies can be installed on any trains but is still too expensive for mass use in Eastern Europe, one boogie costs more than 50,000 USD.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 10:13 AM   #808
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I looked at the Nice-Moscow schedule. For sake, it takes 11h to travel from Ventemiglia to Brennero - and it doesn't even stop at Milano Centrale -. Then, almost 8 hours from Innsbruck-Wien. Too slow IMO.
When are you finally going to understand that speed isn't everything ?
People wanting to go from Moscow to Nice in the shortest time are not
going to board that train anyway. There are daily flights on the same route.
People on board this train are there to enjoy it, not to endure it, so why
speed up ? There are probably 30 minutes stops here and there to allow
people to strech their legs a bit, may be buy something at a station shop.
And also may be a speed voluntarily limited at night to preserve sleep
comfort. There was a time (don't know if it is still the case) night trains in
Germany were voluntarily limited to 120 km/h, even if track and rolling stock
allowed faster speeds, in order to avoid shaking asleep passengers out of
their beds...
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Old September 29th, 2010, 04:09 PM   #809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABC LV View Post
To be fair Talgo is "crap". Whole system is very expensive and can only be used with Talgo manufactured trains.
Polish SUW 2000 in that is case is better, SUW2000 boogies can be installed on any trains but is still too expensive for mass use in Eastern Europe, one boogie costs more than 50,000 USD.
That's not a lot. A modern railway carriage will cost 2 million and over. so two gauge changing bogies would just add about 5% to the cost.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 04:15 PM   #810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
When are you finally going to understand that speed isn't everything ?
And I could imagine that you'd want to maximize the chance to enjoy the scenery. The current schedule has the train pass through Austria by daylight. I wouldn't be surprised if that was on purpose...
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Old September 29th, 2010, 04:38 PM   #811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABC LV View Post
To be fair Talgo is "crap". Whole system is very expensive and can only be used with Talgo manufactured trains.
Polish SUW 2000 in that is case is better, SUW2000 boogies can be installed on any trains but is still too expensive for mass use in Eastern Europe, one boogie costs more than 50,000 USD.
There this also CAF system.

All are presented on this thread : Automatic and manual changing gauge .

It should be better to talk about other possibilty on it, for more visibility.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 04:49 PM   #812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
When are you finally going to understand that speed isn't everything ?
People wanting to go from Moscow to Nice in the shortest time are not
going to board that train anyway. There are daily flights on the same route.
People on board this train are there to enjoy it, not to endure it, so why
speed up ? There are probably 30 minutes stops here and there to allow
people to strech their legs a bit, may be buy something at a station shop.
And also may be a speed voluntarily limited at night to preserve sleep
comfort. There was a time (don't know if it is still the case) night trains in
Germany were voluntarily limited to 120 km/h, even if track and rolling stock
allowed faster speeds, in order to avoid shaking asleep passengers out of
their beds...
ROFL, you are essentially mimicking those filthy buses I sometimes see in Italy and France coming from Eastern Europe, taking 40, 50, 60h trips from Romania, Bulgaria, Moldova and other countries to Italy, France and even Spain. It is unhealthy to keep passengers so long in the same carriages without throughout cleaning. No way a carriage being used consistently for 40h can remain clean as if it were a daily service in which the cleaning companies took care of it.

I'd favor some studies about how cleaning standards are kept in those carriages (and on such long-distance buses, for that matter). EU should impose harsh regulations on how clean buses, train carriages and aircraft cabins must be, and with each frequency they should be emptied and cleaned top-to-bottom and so.

Something says that the cleaning standards of such long-distance trains are not up to par with an ICE or an Eurostar or even a Frecciarossa.

I generally don't like the idea of vintage trains using normal railroads, but as far as they are paying for their paths and not using public subsidies on the countries they cross, that is fine.

In any case, I bet a better planned train could take that trip at most in 30 hours if routed through Germany and Switzerland.

Finally, the "reduce speed to increase comfort" argument doesn't hold. Sleeping in tilting trains would be, theoretically, less comfortable if the ride were taken at a lower-than-maximum speed. Updated railways have smooth switches and concrete bases, modern rolling stock have state-of-the-art suspension technology more than able to offset any "bump" generated from updated tracks (not talking about high-speed tracks which have black-outs during nighttime).

Personally, I'd never ride a night train. I don't like trains usually, unless high-speed, and night trains - and the idea of sharing compartments with strangers - are dreadful. But let them run in any case. A train like this is more like horse riding...
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Old September 29th, 2010, 05:23 PM   #813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
That's not a lot. A modern railway carriage will cost 2 million and over. so two gauge changing bogies would just add about 5% to the cost.
The problem is not for passenger carriages but for freight wagons that usually cost around 50.000-100.000 (EUR or USD doesn't matter).
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Old September 29th, 2010, 05:30 PM   #814
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you don't want to understand that going by train somewhere is a traveling pleasure too
all those people can afford to fly even in business class here and there but they enjoy trains
And it has nothing to do with speed. They don't want simply to go from a to b. They like the process and all related to this (communication, new friends and acquaintances, drinking in restaurant car finally )
And comparing buses and trains is not the most smart thing to do

Last edited by AlexisMD; September 29th, 2010 at 05:36 PM.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 07:05 PM   #815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
At the border between ex-URSS and neighbouring countries, such installations
still exist and function several times per day, like for example at Brest-Litovsk
on the line from Warsaw to Moscow. This is probably where this new train
Nice-Moscow has its bogies changed.
Those installations still exist and no doubt that new ones will appear in the future.
AFAIK the newest is the one that has been opened by the Iranian Railways in Zahedan, where the very new Bam-Zahedan railway (UIC gauge) meet the "indian gauge" Zahedan-Pakistan border railway.
This should allow direct trains between Calcuta and London. But the Pakistan needs to drastically upgrade the Taftan (Iranian border)-Quetta line first..
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Old September 29th, 2010, 07:53 PM   #816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
ROFL, you are essentially mimicking those filthy buses I sometimes see in Italy and France coming from Eastern Europe, taking 40, 50, 60h trips from Romania, Bulgaria, Moldova and other countries to Italy, France and even Spain. It is unhealthy to keep passengers so long in the same carriages without throughout cleaning. No way a carriage being used consistently for 40h can remain clean as if it were a daily service in which the cleaning companies took care of it.
I'd favor some studies about how cleaning standards are kept in those carriages (and on such long-distance buses, for that matter). EU should impose harsh regulations on how clean buses, train carriages and aircraft cabins must be, and with each frequency they should be emptied and cleaned top-to-bottom and so.
Where the heck does that argument come from? I'd rather prefer start improving hygiene standards on motorway service stations. Car drivers are way more disgusting than train riders.
Btw., your beloved free markets would solve the problem on its own - if the standard wouldn't be acceptable, no-one would use the services of that company. Why don't you believe in them on this matter?

Quote:
I generally don't like the idea of vintage trains using normal railroads, but as far as they are paying for their paths and not using public subsidies on the countries they cross, that is fine.
Who talked about heritage trains?

Quote:
In any case, I bet a better planned train could take that trip at most in 30 hours if routed through Germany and Switzerland.
But you can read, can't you? The fastest route isn't the idea of that train. A cruise ship travelling from Barcelona to Athens doesn't a direct trip either.

Quote:
Finally, the "reduce speed to increase comfort" argument doesn't hold. Sleeping in tilting trains would be, theoretically, less comfortable if the ride were taken at a lower-than-maximum speed. Updated railways have smooth switches and concrete bases, modern rolling stock have state-of-the-art suspension technology more than able to offset any "bump" generated from updated tracks (not talking about high-speed tracks which have black-outs during nighttime).
Problem: It's not a tilting train. And most of the tracks on that route probably don't fit the most modern standard. And again - it's a cruise. Comfort is more important than speed on that service.

Quote:
Personally, I'd never ride a night train. I don't like trains usually, unless high-speed, and night trains - and the idea of sharing compartments with strangers - are dreadful. But let them run in any case. A train like this is more like horse riding...
Why am i not surprised?


Your concept of how railways should operate does apply on that train even less than is applies on normal services. Ironically, it might still work just fine.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 06:43 AM   #817
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What the hell, Suburbanist, you have a pretty warped idea of progress... speed up, speed up... what for? We should loosen up a lot instead.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 08:40 AM   #818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
What the hell, Suburbanist, you have a pretty warped idea of progress... speed up, speed up... what for? We should loosen up a lot instead.
The faster, the bigger, the brighter - the better. Time is money and speed is modernity
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Old September 30th, 2010, 11:22 AM   #819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augusto View Post
AFAIK the newest is the one that has been opened by the Iranian Railways in Zahedan, where the very new Bam-Zahedan railway (UIC gauge) meet the "indian gauge" Zahedan-Pakistan border railway.
This should allow direct trains between Calcuta and London. But the Pakistan needs to drastically upgrade the Taftan (Iranian border)-Quetta line first..
I know about that place, I monitor the iranian railways web site about once a
month to see if/when passenger trains to Zahedan will appear. Last time I
checked, there was still nothing advertised further than Bam. I want to go
to India all the way by train...

On the other hand, I'm not sure that there is a real bogie changing facility
over there. I know it's where UIC and indian track gauge meet (for the first time!) but it's difficult to say whether it's a full bogie changing plant or a
simple trans-shipment installation. Google Earth on that part of the world
hasn't been updated since years and list time I checked it still showed the
site under construction. Pakistani railways having announced its intention to
rebuild the Zahedan-Taftan-Quetta line to standard gauge, it might very
well be that Iranians did not invest in a full facility if it will be only temporary.
As soon as paggenger trains operate there and if security conditions allow it,
I'll be there and bring back some pictures...
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Old September 30th, 2010, 11:53 AM   #820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
ROFL, you are essentially mimicking those filthy buses I sometimes see in Italy and France coming from Eastern Europe, taking 40, 50, 60h trips from Romania, Bulgaria, Moldova and other countries to Italy, France and even Spain.
Given the price, I doubt very much that this train will be filthy in any way.
If it is kept like the trains on the trans-siberian route, with one provodnista
per carriage, then there is no reason to worry about. But you have never
boarded such a train, have you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It is unhealthy to keep passengers so long in the same carriages without throughout cleaning. No way a carriage being used consistently for 40h can remain clean as if it were a daily service in which the cleaning companies took care of it.

I'd favor some studies about how cleaning standards are kept in those carriages (and on such long-distance buses, for that matter). EU should impose harsh regulations on how clean buses, train carriages and aircraft cabins must be, and with each frequency they should be emptied and cleaned top-to-bottom and so.
Why is it that your faith in free market suddently disappears for subjects like
this ? You don't believe in regulation, do you ? Well, let the free market take
care of that too ! If it does not meet basic cleanliness standards, it will lose
its customers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Something says that the cleaning standards of such long-distance trains are not up to par with an ICE or an Eurostar or even a Frecciarossa.
How do you know, you never saw it for yourself... I have, and didn't see
any noticeable difference between that and the passenger cabin of a plane
used on short haul flights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
In any case, I bet a better planned train could take that trip at most in 30 hours if routed through Germany and Switzerland.
30 hours seem a bit short. May be 48 hours instead of 56. But what would
be the point ? I repeat : people boarding this train are NOT interested by
speed !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Finally, the "reduce speed to increase comfort" argument doesn't hold. Sleeping in tilting trains would be, theoretically, less comfortable if the ride were taken at a lower-than-maximum speed. Updated railways have smooth switches and concrete bases, modern rolling stock have state-of-the-art suspension technology more than able to offset any "bump" generated from updated tracks (not talking about high-speed tracks which have black-outs during nighttime).
Conventional coaches with tilting mechanism do not exist yet. Tilt trains
only exist in the form of MU sets or talgo rakes. This train isn't anything
like that.

And this train crosses countries where most of the track is still very
conventional : jointed rails on wooden sleepers. I still remember my trip to
Iran, you can really "feel" the borders, when track maintenance standards
change : down between Austria and Hungary, down again when entering
Romania, even further when entering Turkey, and then noticeably up when
entering Iran... But on such tracks, keeping a limited speed definitely
increases comfort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Personally, I'd never ride a night train. I don't like trains usually, unless high-speed, and night trains - and the idea of sharing compartments with strangers - are dreadful. But let them run in any case. A train like this is more like horse riding.
That is the most useless thing you ever wrote here. Every one of us already
understood that, you know !
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