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Old October 13th, 2010, 03:42 AM   #941
Bulbous
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I'm not confusing the concepts, I'm just saying it's better safe than sorry. You say Shinkansen can never have a crash but it definitely can, even a Maglev train crashed in Germany and many people died. You would have never thought that could happen, but it did. I never said strength was directly linked to weight, it's just part of it, I said you need a balance. Obviously you can build light and strong structures like an aircraft or railroad car.

Don't think you would be able to drive anything away from anything after a collision of such huge machines at 175 mph. The train would come off worse but anything it hit would still be a goner, trains can rip steel bridges in half. If a tank was rightside up after the collision maybe you could drive it away provided that the treads were not ripped off, however any occupant of even that war machine would be dead. The train wouldn't have to suffer as much if the entire structure, all hundreds of tons, took the load of the impact together, rather than just the front car. Trains do that to some extent yet not all the way.

TGV is a good example of a train that does well in crashes because it can't jackknife, at least not easily. Look at TGV crashes, one time the TGV hit an 80 ton asphalt paving machine and no one died because the cars cannot jackknife due to the fact that the cars are permanently connected. That is the most intelligent way to design a train.

EMD locomotives foot per foot are about as dense as tanks, and they can often move pretty fast too, sometimes as fast as 100+ mph. however the right structural engineering could make even light trains this strong. The metal should bend and twist you're right, however the train car should not be able to rip open or be easily (relatively) destroyed.
Even though you bring this up time and time again, and no matter what we say, you equate strength with visuals - I will say it again....... please, for the love of god, study at least some semblance of engineering practices...... my entire engineering office still cannot understand your basis for your claims.......

Please, continue.....
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Old October 13th, 2010, 05:02 AM   #942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulbous View Post
Even though you bring this up time and time again, and no matter what we say, you equate strength with visuals - I will say it again....... please, for the love of god, study at least some semblance of engineering practices...... my entire engineering office still cannot understand your basis for your claims.......

Please, continue.....

Some trains are not built well enough to withstand crashes - That's my claim, very simple.
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Old October 13th, 2010, 07:33 AM   #943
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I'm not confusing the concepts, I'm just saying it's better safe than sorry.
And what the others here are saying: "there is no such thing as a free lunch". All what you propose has a cost. Everything that costs money draws away money from other applications.
There is no such thing as a risk free human activity either. Better safe than sorry? Well, stay at home. Only, then you'll die in some freak accident with your dishwasher.
The concept that you need to understand that even when it is possible to avoid some bad scenario, it is not always the wise choice to do so.
Yes, you could build the Shinkansen trains stronger. In doing so however you would not so far have saved any lives though. What you would however have achieved is make the Shinkansen system more expensive, which would have lead to higher ticket prices which would have lead to less people taking the train.
Since rail is already the safest mode of transportation _anything_ that makes people switch to other modes of transportation actually costs lives. Real lives. Therefore making rail less economically viable by imposing even higher structural norms and safety regimes actually leads to people dying.

Last edited by K_; October 13th, 2010 at 10:59 AM.
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Old October 13th, 2010, 08:20 AM   #944
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Yea you're right, I was mostly playing devils advocate..

I also believe that Shinkansen trains are pretty strong, they are just strong with light metal.
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Old October 14th, 2010, 04:33 PM   #945
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France vetoed Velaro.

http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne...14-242363.html

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France says Eurostar cannot buy German trains


Thu, Oct 14, 2010
AFP



PARIS - France's transport minister insisted on Thursday that cross-Channel rail monopoly Eurostar cannot buy German trains because only rolling stock made by French firm Alstom meets safety standards.

Minister Dominique Bussereau dismissed an announcement by Eurostar that it had ordered 10 high-speed Velaro trains from German group Siemens, a setback for French group Alstom, as EU railways are opened up to competition.

"We have told the directors of Eurotunnel and Eurostar that equipment other than that currently made by Alstom cannot go in the tunnel, so Eurostar's decision is null and void," minister Dominique Bussereau told LCI television.
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Old October 14th, 2010, 04:35 PM   #946
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And the battle begins...
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Old October 14th, 2010, 05:56 PM   #947
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It does make my wonder why only Alstom-trains appearantly meet safety regulations. If they were to say "TGV's have proven their safety by having only powered engines at the front and rear of the train" that can easily be dismissed as Alstom, too, is using distributed power on their AGV and Speedalia trains.
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Old October 14th, 2010, 09:00 PM   #948
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And the battle begins...
eah, EU will decide
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Old October 14th, 2010, 09:15 PM   #949
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But the Astom trains have the special safety feature on them. The badge.
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Old October 14th, 2010, 09:18 PM   #950
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It does make my wonder why only Alstom-trains appearantly meet safety regulations. If they were to say "TGV's have proven their safety by having only powered engines at the front and rear of the train" that can easily be dismissed as Alstom, too, is using distributed power on their AGV and Speedalia trains.
Chunnel capable trains must be able to move all the passensers to either half length of train, split into two, and run back to safety in case of an accident or fire.

EMUs cannot split into two. Siemens is proposing to link two 8-car trainsets into single formation and then split in case of an accident, but then you still have the problem of moving passensers between trainsets.
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Old October 14th, 2010, 09:23 PM   #951
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Those rules have been relaxed or are in the process of being reviewed as this has never been needed and it has appeared that in case of emergency (such as a fire) overhead power lines become unreliable. The 400 meter train length is because of the emergency passages.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 12:37 AM   #952
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Those rules have been relaxed or are in the process of being reviewed as this has never been needed and it has appeared that in case of emergency (such as a fire) overhead power lines become unreliable. The 400 meter train length is because of the emergency passages.
And even that argument does not hold :
- Current Eurostar rakes, first to last passenger door, are NOT 400m long
- NOL rakes (those that were planned for the services North Of London, hence their names) were even shorter
- and the AGV is shorter too.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 12:53 AM   #953
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The current "Three Capitals" trainsets (the ones that cross the Channel Tunnel every day) are 394 meters long, which is long enough to have two doors opposite to the emergency doors which are 375 meters apart. The NOL-sets were not supposed to pass through the Channel Tunnel, that's why they're shorter. They did go through the Channel Tunnel eventually, but not for passenger service but as transport indeed. They are now leased to SNCF, except for a half-set.

According to the AGV brochure, the longest AGV is 252 meters long at 14 carriages. AGV carriages are much shorter than Velaro carriages... if requested I am pretty sure Alstom could build a 21-carriage AGV which is long enough to meet tunnel requirements.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 01:29 AM   #954
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NOL sets were planned for cross tunnel services, but with at least a terminus different from Paris or London.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 02:09 AM   #955
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AN ICE train is tested in the tunnel:

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/gener...s-channel.html
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Old October 16th, 2010, 12:47 AM   #956
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The e320 is a double length ICE3. There is nothing to stop it being two electrically independent half length sets like Eurostar is.

But it's all French protectionism.
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Old October 16th, 2010, 11:46 PM   #957
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And Protectionism is one of the worst criminal offences in the EU. Especially now that France is under fire from most EU countries for their recent "deportation" of Roma people.

It's up to the European high court to decide who played a fare game and who didn't. I hope France will be fined a good seven figure sum.

As for Astom, I expect the company to go head down again within ten years.
No Picadilly line contract
No Thameslink
No Crossrail
No new British Intercity procurement for them
No big orders for AGV or TGV other then SNCF itself

Netherlands is buying Siemens/Bombardier, Alstom equipment is being withdrawn from service, and a replacement is very unlikely as NS will only buy EMU's in future.
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Old October 17th, 2010, 01:55 AM   #958
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I don't think Alstom will go head down... they still have their Power and Grid divisions. Furthermore, Amsterdam is buying new metro trains from them (Metropolis), for RandstadRail there are Alstom trainsets, RijnGouweLijn will probably be Alstom, the city of Rotterdam has Alstom Citadis trams.

They have lots of customers in France (SNCF, tramways, etc), they are delivering the AGV to NTV. They have made a great loco with the Prima 2 where ONCF (Marocco) is their launching customer, and with their recent Speedelia platform they're aiming for customers in Italy. In the UK they hold maintenance contracts for the Jubilee and Northern line, they have contracts with Virgin Trains for maintenance and extending trains, and they do practically everything for the LUAS tram system in Dublin.
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Old October 17th, 2010, 10:29 AM   #959
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Quote:
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I don't think Alstom will go head down... they still have their Power and Grid divisions. Furthermore, Amsterdam is buying new metro trains from them (Metropolis), for RandstadRail there are Alstom trainsets, RijnGouweLijn will probably be Alstom, the city of Rotterdam has Alstom Citadis trams.

They have lots of customers in France (SNCF, tramways, etc), they are delivering the AGV to NTV. They have made a great loco with the Prima 2 where ONCF (Marocco) is their launching customer, and with their recent Speedelia platform they're aiming for customers in Italy. In the UK they hold maintenance contracts for the Jubilee and Northern line, they have contracts with Virgin Trains for maintenance and extending trains, and they do practically everything for the LUAS tram system in Dublin.

I have to agree that that it looks good... sadly it isn't. I do not expect Alstom to deliver any new train to the UK other then the already ordered 106 Pendolino coaches. Perhaps DafT decides to get 31 trainsets more to replace InterCity 225 and HST's... but then Bombardier just recently presented what we all expected... the Class 22x EDMU, which comes for almost half the price, and is cleared for all British mainlines.

Alstom has a big problem selling their "non standard" trains, where Siemens sells loads of them to all parts of the globe.

Recently I heard a rumour about Argentina to build a HSL and that they were likely to shortlist Siemens with their Velaro design.

It had it's reasons why Alsthom (with an "H") went bust, and I see similar things today.
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Old October 17th, 2010, 04:22 PM   #960
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I have to agree that that it looks good... sadly it isn't. I do not expect Alstom to deliver any new train to the UK other then the already ordered 106 Pendolino coaches. Perhaps DafT decides to get 31 trainsets more to replace InterCity 225 and HST's... but then Bombardier just recently presented what we all expected... the Class 22x EDMU, which comes for almost half the price, and is cleared for all British mainlines.

Alstom has a big problem selling their "non standard" trains, where Siemens sells loads of them to all parts of the globe.

Recently I heard a rumour about Argentina to build a HSL and that they were likely to shortlist Siemens with their Velaro design.

It had it's reasons why Alsthom (with an "H") went bust, and I see similar things today.
Hasn't Argentina signed something like $12bn worth of rail deals with China earlier this year? It may be very likely that Siemens and the likes will have to either withdraw whatsoever or join a consortium with the Chinese bids just as Siemens did in Saudi Arabia.
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