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Old October 23rd, 2010, 02:31 PM   #1001
Maarten Otto
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Since the tunnel crossing sit's in the middle of the trip you could as easily send an engineer to man the end CAB and at the destination it would replace the 1st one (wich would became the end CAB engineer) ... a 6h or 7h trip could then be handled by both without needing a second BASE.
Sorry, but a round trip Amsterdam - London - Amsterdam would be something like 8 hours. Add 1 hour to it at St. Pancras to clean the train and allow your staff a 45 minute break... and it can be done in 1 shift... requiring just 1 driver.

Training the Train Manager to get the train out of the tunnel in emergency is the cheapest and fastest option.
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 02:48 PM   #1002
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Once you mentioned that, I have a question: Amsterdam Zuid is going to be reconstructed underground (as part of a much larger project including the Noord-Zuid line for Amsterdam Metro, and the tunneling of A10 highway near the Zuidas area. Couldn't they think of building a couple of segregated underground platforms there?

Amsterdam Zuid is planned to be the city's main transportation hub, so that could pay off.

Meanwhile, they could do some reconstruction in the Schiphol main hall and seal off one-half of one of the platforms for International train services - check-in and security facilities would be overground, in place of 3 or 4 stores now located there, inside the main hall. Then, the platform could be sealed off and reserved only for international trains, so they could start scanning passengers using Fyra, Thalys and ICE also.
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 04:27 PM   #1003
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Training the Train Manager to get the train out of the tunnel in emergency is the cheapest and fastest option.
That's what Eurostar does. However, cheapest is probably what the Swiss do: Just let the driver move his train backwards without leaving his post...
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 04:37 PM   #1004
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A bit more on-topic: Deutsche Bahn has announced they want to start running ICE trains through the Channel Tunnel from London to Frankfurt and from London to Amsterdam.
From my point of view, DB getting into competition with Eurostar is like a fat kid signing up for judo classes. They know that they have to do it, but they are, in my opinion, nowhere near being ready for this. DB's ICE trains are frequently troubled by delays and overbooked. I don't wish them bad, but they are in my opinion behind the French, which is surprising considering the fact that Germans are the pioneers of all things mechanical.
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 05:38 PM   #1005
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Short answer... NO.

There is simply no capacity at the station to do the required "security" checks or border control. Besides... it would take another 11 or 20 minutes and that is exactly what you don't want if your in competition with easyJet or Ryanair.
Why no? What I heard is that the airport station is going to have 7 platforms. Most trains calling at the station don't need extra security. And who knows, sanity might break out in the UK too, and the security check for Eurostar abolished. Otherwise one of the platform could be used for such services. After all, the necessary immigration and security staff is already present at the airport. It could be that DB chooses to Split/Combine it's services to London there, in stead of in Brussel Zuid.
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 05:40 PM   #1006
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From my point of view, DB getting into competition with Eurostar is like a fat kid signing up for judo classes. They know that they have to do it, but they are, in my opinion, nowhere near being ready for this. DB's ICE trains are frequently troubled by delays and overbooked. I don't wish them bad, but they are in my opinion behind the French, which is surprising considering the fact that Germans are the pioneers of all things mechanical.
Currently about 3/4th of the TGVs aren't even running. Who is behind here?
I think that the Velaro-D will be a lot more reliable than the ICE-3. No more mishmash between parts from three different manufacturers, and even Siemens is able to learn...
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 05:42 PM   #1007
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Meanwhile, they could do some reconstruction in the Schiphol main hall and seal off one-half of one of the platforms for International train services - check-in and security facilities would be overground, in place of 3 or 4 stores now located there, inside the main hall. Then, the platform could be sealed off and reserved only for international trains, so they could start scanning passengers using Fyra, Thalys and ICE also.
I really hope, that anybody capable of making sure this does not happens, makes sure this does not happen.
The very last thing we want is security checks on Thalys, ICE and Fyra also. We need to get rid of the security theatre imposed on Eurostar, not introduce it for other services.
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 10:03 PM   #1008
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I wasn't talking about immigration checks, as - contrary to Eurostar - Fyra and Thalys services run only within Schengen area. My reasoning is that if you enclose and seal off half of one of Schiphol's platforms, you can perform security (not immigration) checks on passengers, like they now do in Mardid Atocha for those using AVE, which, for sake, it's a domestic train.
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 11:20 PM   #1009
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I have had my bags checked today in Barcelona - but if I had a knife with me or if I had placed a bomb on the tracks (or on myself) nobody would have noticed that.
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Old October 24th, 2010, 12:10 PM   #1010
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I wasn't talking about immigration checks, as - contrary to Eurostar - Fyra and Thalys services run only within Schengen area. My reasoning is that if you enclose and seal off half of one of Schiphol's platforms, you can perform security (not immigration) checks on passengers, like they now do in Mardid Atocha for those using AVE, which, for sake, it's a domestic train.
My point is that these security checks are:
a) completely pointless
b) cost money, thus reduce the revenue of the operating company (you ought to be sensitive that the argument...)
c) are inconvenient for the passengers.
d) completely pointless.

Oh, and did I mention they are completely pointless? They are a wast of resources and manpower.

Give me one, one single example, of an attempted bombing of a train that was stopped by security checks at a station.
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Old October 24th, 2010, 12:51 PM   #1011
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Give me one, one single example, of an attempted bombing of a train that was stopped by security checks at a station.
You can't know how many (if any) wannabe bombers never minded to attempt an attack on a HS train because they know there are security checks in place!
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Old October 24th, 2010, 01:28 PM   #1012
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Tree trains a day isn't good enough for Zaventem Airport. I can harly call it a sustainable service for an airport, and I don't suspect any air passenger would book the train. The only thing I can think of is Fyra to serve the airport. But as AirFrance / KLM holds a 10% share in HSA and will never allow a decent service to serve the competition from Brussels airport. HSA has no franchise agreement to serve the airport I doubt it will introduce any service, as it will require at least one additional train to be build... and we all know how reliable AB is.

As for the idea of having a seperated section of Schiphol airport station....
Never going to happen, unless the operator will fund an extension of the station by building a new platform.

At the moment there are 24 services per hour using platforms 4/5/6 towards Hoofddorp, Platform 4 can not be used for services to Rotterdam via the HSL as the point work at Schiphol airport and Hoofddorp doesn't support it. Platforms 5/6 are DVM tracks. (Dynamic Traffic Management). DVM is a switch which does 5, 6, 5, 6, 5, 6.... and does it 2 to 3 minutes before the train arrives at Schiphol Airport. I bet you can't check all passengers in 3 minutes, secure the platform and make sure the train is running again after two minutes.

Trains from London wouldn't be any problem as long as the train will depart in 3 minutes.
And again, with just three trains a day in both directions, you can hardly call is a "good" service for air passengers. For point to point journeys it's perfect, but not if it includes a change from air to rail.

As for Schiphol Airport rail station... there simply is no track/platform capacity if a security check is involved. Without those checks it might be possible to include the airport.
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Old October 24th, 2010, 04:47 PM   #1013
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Tree trains a day isn't good enough for Zaventem Airport. I can harly call it a sustainable service for an airport, and I don't suspect any air passenger would book the train. The only thing I can think of is Fyra to serve the airport. But as AirFrance / KLM holds a 10% share in HSA and will never allow a decent service to serve the competition from Brussels airport. HSA has no franchise agreement to serve the airport I doubt it will introduce any service, as it will require at least one additional train to be build... and we all know how reliable AB is.

As for the idea of having a seperated section of Schiphol airport station....
Never going to happen, unless the operator will fund an extension of the station by building a new platform.

At the moment there are 24 services per hour using platforms 4/5/6 towards Hoofddorp, Platform 4 can not be used for services to Rotterdam via the HSL as the point work at Schiphol airport and Hoofddorp doesn't support it. Platforms 5/6 are DVM tracks. (Dynamic Traffic Management). DVM is a switch which does 5, 6, 5, 6, 5, 6.... and does it 2 to 3 minutes before the train arrives at Schiphol Airport. I bet you can't check all passengers in 3 minutes, secure the platform and make sure the train is running again after two minutes.

Trains from London wouldn't be any problem as long as the train will depart in 3 minutes.
And again, with just three trains a day in both directions, you can hardly call is a "good" service for air passengers. For point to point journeys it's perfect, but not if it includes a change from air to rail.

As for Schiphol Airport rail station... there simply is no track/platform capacity if a security check is involved. Without those checks it might be possible to include the airport.
What if, in face of new extended rail service, they decide to build an extension of HLS Zuid from Schiphol (Hoffddorp indeed) to Amsterdam Zuid? Like the St. Pancras approach in London: almost entirely buried. They can even build 2 extra tracks to extend the Noord-Zuid metro line to Schiphol then, problem solved!
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Old October 24th, 2010, 06:26 PM   #1014
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Extension of the Noord-Zuidlijn to Schiphol is something which has crossed some people's minds a few times, but giving the current fiasco it's unlikely that a Schiphol extension will be realized anytime soon.

Other plans are that all high speed trains will call at Amsterdam Zuid and not Centraal in the future, as there's little capacity available on the 'Westtak', the line from Centraal to Schiphol, while more capacity will be realized around the Zuidtak (Southern branch).
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Old October 24th, 2010, 06:53 PM   #1015
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Tell anyone in Amsterdam you want to dig a new tunnel and I can assure you someone will get his axe....
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Old October 24th, 2010, 07:07 PM   #1016
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Tell anyone in Amsterdam you want to dig a new tunnel and I can assure you someone will get his axe....
What about the rail-road tunnel near the A10/Zuidas, bringing road and tracks underground and building a new underground AMS Zuid station?
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Old October 24th, 2010, 07:13 PM   #1017
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As the city of Amsterdam is almost Bankrupt due to underground construction I can't take those ideas seriousley. For the same amount of money one could build a high speed line from Lelystad to Groningen.
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Old October 24th, 2010, 09:19 PM   #1018
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You can't know how many (if any) wannabe bombers never minded to attempt an attack on a HS train because they know there are security checks in place!
Just hold that thought, and you'll get there...
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Old October 25th, 2010, 01:04 AM   #1019
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I have never seen security checks for Thalys trains in the Netherlands, nor Belgium. Same goes for the ICE International or Fyra services.
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Old October 25th, 2010, 06:41 AM   #1020
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I have never seen security checks for Thalys trains in the Netherlands, nor Belgium. Same goes for the ICE International or Fyra services.
And most persons immediately grasp why security checks for such trains would be pointless. Except for suburbanist here...
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