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Old October 25th, 2010, 06:46 AM   #1021
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Originally Posted by Maarten Otto View Post
And again, with just three trains a day in both directions, you can hardly call is a "good" service for air passengers. For point to point journeys it's perfect, but not if it includes a change from air.
Depends. There are destinations from Schiphol with only one flight a day. I don't see why three trains a day to London would be useless. Even to airline passengers. Just co-ordinate with the airlines and you can tap in to the huge market of people who once flew through Heathrow...
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Old October 25th, 2010, 09:36 AM   #1022
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If DB plans on an initial 3 trains a day, and Eurostar's new trains come into service they might also plan a few trains a day. In the end this might lead to 6 or 8 trains a day from London or Amsterdam and vice versa, which isn't bad even when the services are carried out by two different companies.
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Old October 25th, 2010, 10:27 AM   #1023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
If DB plans on an initial 3 trains a day, and Eurostar's new trains come into service they might also plan a few trains a day. In the end this might lead to 6 or 8 trains a day from London or Amsterdam and vice versa, which isn't bad even when the services are carried out by two different companies.
And at that point you might do what airlines do for many years... a code share.
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Old October 25th, 2010, 01:14 PM   #1024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten Otto View Post
And at that point you might do what airlines do for many years... a code share.
And something railways also have been doing for many years... Just book Swiss Flight LX7403 from ZDH and see what vehicle you end up on :-)
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Old October 29th, 2010, 09:50 AM   #1025
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This 400m thing is silly. Imagine an emergency situation today where the front half of the 400m Eurostar train stops just past an escape door. A fire has started just before the middle of train break point in first class (coach 9). Now, all the people in the front half of the train can't walk backwards because of the fire, so they have to exit from the front of the train and walk 200m along the tunnel to the next escape door. What is the difference between that and the "double ICE3" scenario?


By the way, I liked this picture.




From the associated article:

Quote:
The EU Takes Sides

None of this has stopped French Transport Minister Dominique Bussereau from intervening on Alstom's behalf. French state-owned railway SNCF owns 55 percent of Eurostar and, even before the test, Bussereau had called its planned contract with Siemens "null and void."

But German Transport Minister Peter Ramsauer doesn't see things that way. "I am sure that the French side wouldn't have had any objections if Alstom emerged as the preferred provider," Ramsauer has said. He also says that he has "no doubt that everything about the awarding of the contract was legal," adding that Michel Barnier, the French European Union commissioner for internal market and services, has also confirmed to him that this is the case.
Germany is counting on the assistance of the European Commission in the case. Since liberalizing European railway traffic at the beginning of the year, the Commission has been keeping a very close eye on making sure that no one puts the brakes on new competitors.

Already on Oct. 8, a high-ranking EU official assured Siemens that it would be given energetic support in its battle over the major contract. In a letter to the company, the official told Siemens to "immediately contact" the Commission if anything having to do with the order is "changed or cancelled."
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Old October 30th, 2010, 03:17 AM   #1026
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Today a court in London decided to back Siemens, and award no injunction to Alstom on their claim that the contract is void. Seems like this issue is close being finished, I feel bad that it was ever opened to begin with.
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Old October 30th, 2010, 01:23 PM   #1027
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Alstom are trying to spin it another way:

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...29-715840.html

They have one more chance to hold things up (at least, using this method)

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/35ca33ec-e...44feabdc0.html


Expect the battle to move here next:

Quote:
French official ousted amid Eurostar row
By Robert Wright in London

Published: October 20 2010 20:15 | Last updated: October 20 2010 20:15

France’s top adviser on Channel tunnel safety has lost her job after only four months. Her departure comes after the French government criticised rule changes that would allow German-built trains to use the tunnel.

Françoise Deygout has been replaced by Michel Aymeric, formerly an official at France’s national rail safety regulator, as head of the French delegation to the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority, people involved said.

Last edited by 33Hz; October 30th, 2010 at 01:28 PM.
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Old October 31st, 2010, 01:19 AM   #1028
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This is pretty pathetic to be honest.
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Old October 31st, 2010, 02:27 AM   #1029
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In the United States, this would be considered a huge conflict of interest. Eurostar should have the right to negotiate with whomever they wish in order to obtain the best price for equipment. On second thought, this happens all the time with "Buy American" regulations. Still, if Alstom cannot produce a product and bid better to Siemens, then Alstom needs to step up its game versus handing them a blank check in order to keep the dollars in France.

I am just curious to know how the heck is Eurostar strucutred. Is it a for profit? Who has majority ownership?
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Old October 31st, 2010, 02:46 PM   #1030
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http://www.eurostar.com/UK/uk/leisur..._structure.jsp

Quote:
On 1 September 2010, Eurostar completed the legal transformation of its business from a joint venture to Eurostar International, a single, unified standalone business owned by three shareholders: [France] SNCF (55%), [Belgium] SNCB (5%) and [UK] LCR (40%).
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Old November 1st, 2010, 11:53 AM   #1031
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I'm not speak english

Quote:
Originally Posted by endrity View Post
This is pretty pathetic to be honest.
Alstom a offert une solution technique plus adaptee que son concurrent, a prix egal il doit remporter la commande. Par ces temps difficiles une commande de ce montant est trop importante pour echapper a l'industrie francaise. Peu importe les considerations philophiques des uns et des autres dont le salarie francais n'a rien a faire...il a besoin de travailler! Les allemands ne se posent pas autant de questions que nous, ils exportent a tour de bras. Et puis les allemands preferent rouler en audi ou bmw qu'en renault ou fiat. Pourquoi la police Allemande ne roule qu'en voitures fabriquees en Allemagne quand la police francaise roule ford, subaru ou autres? La SNCF n'a pas joue sont role d'actionnaire principal, tout comme l'etat qui aurait du discretement mettre son veto. Ok pour la libre concurrence, mais dans les deux sens, quand la Deutsch Bahn passera-t-elle commande de trains a Alstom?
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Old November 1st, 2010, 01:06 PM   #1032
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Hi Artemix.

Appreciate your reply, but maybe for the benefit of other non-French speaking readers, just a suggestion that you might wanna use http://translate.google.com/

Works pretty well


Also, what I am curious to know is more about EMUs versus the front-end power aspect of the Velaro versus the current Eurostar sets. Would this affect in any way the Channel Tunnel operations? I'm not sure if there has ever been EMUs operating in it, or whetehr its a non-issue anyhow.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 01:31 PM   #1033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemix View Post
Alstom a offert une solution technique plus adaptee que son concurrent, a prix egal il doit remporter la commande. Par ces temps difficiles une commande de ce montant est trop importante pour echapper a l'industrie francaise. Peu importe les considerations philophiques des uns et des autres dont le salarie francais n'a rien a faire...il a besoin de travailler! Les allemands ne se posent pas autant de questions que nous, ils exportent a tour de bras. Et puis les allemands preferent rouler en audi ou bmw qu'en renault ou fiat. Pourquoi la police Allemande ne roule qu'en voitures fabriquees en Allemagne quand la police francaise roule ford, subaru ou autres? La SNCF n'a pas joue sont role d'actionnaire principal, tout comme l'etat qui aurait du discretement mettre son veto. Ok pour la libre concurrence, mais dans les deux sens, quand la Deutsch Bahn passera-t-elle commande de trains a Alstom?
le marché en Italie, Allemagne et Angleterre est ouvert depuis 1994

-->keolis Allemagne (100% SNCF)
http://www.keolis.com/fr/groupe/impl...-europeen.html

--> ÖBB-DB Italie
http://www.obb-italia.com/
services:
DB-ÖBB EuroCity
ÖBB Intercitybus
ÖBB night trains




--> LGV EN ITALIE --->NTV (20% SNCF)
http://www.ntvspa.it/
25 rames AGV




Arriva UK (DB)
http://www.arriva.co.uk/
Virgintrains UK
http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/
Etc.


Last edited by Marie-Joseph-Paul; November 1st, 2010 at 01:39 PM.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 01:37 PM   #1034
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemix View Post
Alstom a offert une solution technique plus adaptee que son concurrent, a prix egal il doit remporter la commande. Par ces temps difficiles une commande de ce montant est trop importante pour echapper a l'industrie francaise. Peu importe les considerations philophiques des uns et des autres dont le salarie francais n'a rien a faire...il a besoin de travailler! Les allemands ne se posent pas autant de questions que nous, ils exportent a tour de bras. Et puis les allemands preferent rouler en audi ou bmw qu'en renault ou fiat. Pourquoi la police Allemande ne roule qu'en voitures fabriquees en Allemagne quand la police francaise roule ford, subaru ou autres? La SNCF n'a pas joue sont role d'actionnaire principal, tout comme l'etat qui aurait du discretement mettre son veto. Ok pour la libre concurrence, mais dans les deux sens, quand la Deutsch Bahn passera-t-elle commande de trains a Alstom?
Quote:
Translation : Alstom offered a better technical solution than its competitor, at the same price, Alstom has to win the contract. With things as they are, an order of this amount cannot get away from the french industry. The fench worker is not interested by the philosophical considerations. He just needs to work. The German people doesn't do some soul searching neither, they export everywhere. And the German people still prefer to drive an audi or a bmw than a renault or a fiat. Why the German police drive only cars built in Germany while the French police uses Ford, Subaru and others ? The SNCF didn't play its role of majority shareholder, as the French state who should veto . Ok for the free play of competition but in both ways, when will Deutsch Bahn order alstom trains ?


PS : I'm not a translator I just tried to follow all his ideas

I have to say he makes a point here, Deutsch Bahn has never ordered anything else than German trains, and what he said about the police is also true for the entire German administration.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 01:46 PM   #1035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie-Joseph-Paul View Post
le marché en Italie, Allemagne et Angleterre est ouvert depuis 1994

-->keolis Allemagne (100% SNCF)
http://www.keolis.com/fr/groupe/impl...-europeen.html

--> ÖBB-DB Italie
http://www.obb-italia.com/
services:
DB-ÖBB EuroCity
ÖBB Intercitybus
ÖBB night trains




--> LGV EN ITALIE --->NTV (20% SNCF)
http://www.ntvspa.it/


25 rames AGV




Arriva UK
http://www.arriva.co.uk/ (DB)
Virgintrains UK
http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/
Etc.

I'm afraid it wasn't the point, the national german company Deutsch Bahn never buy anything else than german product. The Eurotunnel is a franco english construction where I believe the german never gave anything.
IMO, your example with Keolis has nothing to do with the situation of eurotunnel.

If Eurotunnel was following the same policy than Deutsch Bahn it should have bought french trains.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 02:04 PM   #1036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post

Alstom.... well, what can I say, outdated technology, a CEO who cares more about his ego than about the public relations of his firm, ... Short Alstom if you can.
I really would like to see the demonstration of how the alstom technology is outdated .... First do you know Alstom makes something else than TGV ?

IMO you know nothing about the topic....
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Old November 1st, 2010, 02:05 PM   #1037
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Originally Posted by caserass View Post
I have to say he makes a point here, Deutsch Bahn has never ordered anything else than German trains, and what he said about the police is also true for the entire German administration.
Eurostar is a private entity! Private! For the French this might be a bit weird to understand but it has a right to do, buy, sell whatever they want. If they decided on Siemens there must be a reason.

He would have somewhat of a point if the French government bought these trains, and Germany never buys anything other than German. Which is of course far from the truth, the French government has been accused of protectionism more than any other government of a highly developed country.

But there is a reason why Eurostar bought these trains! Eurostar has claimed that by buying Siemens trains they can operate in the near future in Germany before DB starts competing against them in the Channel Tunnel. There were technical reasons why Siemens trains are better

p.s First Alstom complained that the Siemens trains were unsafe. Then it was revealed that technically the AGV and the Velaro are similar. So now it has switched his argument to unfair competition. The suggest that the Velaro is inferior, yet it is becoming one of the most sought after trains in the world, whereas the AGV has yet to sell anywhere except France and Italy.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 02:07 PM   #1038
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Originally Posted by caserass View Post
I'm afraid it wasn't the point, the national german company Deutsch Bahn never buy anything else than german product. The Eurotunnel is a franco english construction where I believe the german never gave anything.
IMO, your example with Keolis has nothing to do with the situation of eurotunnel.

If Eurotunnel was following the same policy than Deutsch Bahn it should have bought french trains.
The Eurotunnel is a franco-english infrastructure, whose benefits are shared only by the French and English authorities. Buying Siemens trains doesn't mean that the German government get to benefit from fees on the tunnel. By expanding their business and allowing DB to run in the tunnel, the governments of both countries will have more revenues from the tunnel.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 02:47 PM   #1039
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caserass View Post
I'm afraid it wasn't the point, the national german company Deutsch Bahn never buy anything else than german product. The Eurotunnel is a franco english construction where I believe the german never gave anything.
IMO, your example with Keolis has nothing to do with the situation of eurotunnel.

If Eurotunnel was following the same policy than Deutsch Bahn it should have bought french trains.
You're confusing the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority with the French National Railway (SNCF).

Last edited by Marie-Joseph-Paul; November 11th, 2010 at 04:24 PM.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 03:11 PM   #1040
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Originally Posted by caserass View Post
I have to say he makes a point here, Deutsch Bahn has never ordered anything else than German trains, and what he said about the police is also true for the entire German administration.
That is actually not true.
DB (and other German operators) have quite a few Alstom build trains on their roster. That Germany railway operators only buy German has been a thing of the past for quite some time. "Buying german" is not as widespread in Germany is "buying french" is in France. French companies can (and do) operate train services in Germany.
That the German police only buys german build cars is also not true...
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