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Old November 1st, 2010, 03:39 PM   #1041
thun
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Exactly. E. g. some Länder polices run Harley Davidson, Yamaha and Honda motorcycles and Japanese 4x4s if I'm not wrong.

DBs series 640, 648 (Coradia LINT) and 440 (Coradia Continental) are buildt by Alsthom Deutschland (formerly LHB), to name a few. DB even operated a EMD loco (DB series 258/british class 59)
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Old November 1st, 2010, 04:07 PM   #1042
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Exactly. E. g. some Länder polices run Harley Davidson, Yamaha and Honda motorcycles and Japanese 4x4s if I'm not wrong.
I've even seen Renault and Fiat police vans in Germany.

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DBs series 640, 648 (Coradia LINT) and 440 (Coradia Continental) are buildt by Alsthom Deutschland (formerly LHB), to name a few. DB even operated a EMD loco (DB series 258/british class 59)
And Stadler (from, Switzerland) has also delivered quite a few trains to Germany.

But it also true that when DB bought a few TGVs for the Köln - Paris Thalys service these trains were registered with the NMBS, as at that time it was indeed unthinkable for DB to own a French train.
However in Germany that's a thing of the past. In France it might become a thing of the past too, but don't hold your breath...
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Old November 1st, 2010, 09:14 PM   #1043
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I think SNCF is making a wise choice here by not using it's veto right (as a 55% shareholder I am pretty sure they have one)... SNCF knows very well that if the tender process has been done well (i.e. according to the rules) they don't stand a chance on veto'ing the decision of Eurostar, while a veto would seriously affect Eurostar business (more specific: delay expansion into NL and Germany) and might even affect SNCF itself in future tenders for public transport.

Velaro has at least one benefit over whatever the AGV might offer: its predecessor is already admitted in the Netherlands, Belgium, France and Germany, while the Alstom product still has to get admission for all of these countries. Velaro D is an evolution of the ICE-3M(F), which would make it easier to get the trains admitted for each country. AGV is a revolution when compared to TGV: different propulsion systems, distributed and no longer two strong power cars, etc.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 11:53 AM   #1044
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Eurostar is a private entity! Private! For the French this might be a bit weird to understand but it has a right to do, buy, sell whatever they want. If they decided on Siemens there must be a reason.
Since SNCF owns 55 % of Eurostar and SNCF being a public company Eurostar is not so private. Furthermore, the deficit of eurostar has been financed by the states and this company exists thanks to the taxes paid by the french and english people, so no, this is maybe not so private.


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He would have somewhat of a point if the French government bought these trains, and Germany never buys anything other than German. Which is of course far from the truth, the French government has been accused of protectionism more than any other government of a highly developed country.
France is often accused of protectionnism and it is true to say it, nethertheless, I think the french gvt is right.... sometimes


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But there is a reason why Eurostar bought these trains! Eurostar has claimed that by buying Siemens trains they can operate in the near future in Germany before DB starts competing against them in the Channel Tunnel. There were technical reasons why Siemens trains are better
ok why not, just show me that, coz it seems to me that when the judge gave its decision he said that Alstom had strong argument about the security and the way how the offer has been evaluate, but I can be wrong.

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p.s First Alstom complained that the Siemens trains were unsafe. Then it was revealed that technically the AGV and the Velaro are similar.
So now it has switched his argument to unfair competition. The suggest that the Velaro is inferior, yet it is becoming one of the most sought after trains in the world, whereas the AGV has yet to sell anywhere except France and Italy.
No, from the beginning Alstom says two things : first the siemens trains are unsafe, second the condition of the offer hasn't been respected by siemens and of course eurotunnel.
As far as I know, the english judge has said that he cannont judge this case but the arguments of Alstom were strong and should be send in another court.


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Originally Posted by endrity View Post
The Eurotunnel is a franco-english infrastructure, whose benefits are shared only by the French and English authorities. Buying Siemens trains doesn't mean that the German government get to benefit from fees on the tunnel.
We are talking about an order of 600 millions €. It's not the point, even if you're right here.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 11:55 AM   #1045
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Frankly guys, I'm sure sometimes you can see a polizeiwagen which is not a german car, but be honest it's rare, very very rare. Most of them are Opel, VW, Audi and Mercedes.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 12:23 PM   #1046
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No, from the beginning Alstom says two things : first the siemens trains are unsafe,
Alsthom says that the Siemens trains don't meet the current tunnel safety standards. That is something completely different. It doesn't mean the trains are unsafe...
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 12:40 PM   #1047
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The argument over whether Alstom's safety concerns are valid does not answer why they themselves proposed a train that didn't deal with the safety concerns Alstom and the French govt are now invoking.

For that reason alone, regardless of how valid Alstom is/was, they and the French govt are trying to pull one over, simple as that. Thats like attmepting to shoot someone, then claiming the moral high ground just because someone else shot the target before you did.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 01:23 PM   #1048
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Alsthom says that the Siemens trains don't meet the current tunnel safety standards. That is something completely different. It doesn't mean the trains are unsafe...
You're right it's completely different, my mistake, actually I was responding to endrity and I took the same words :

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Originally Posted by endrity View Post
p.s First Alstom complained that the Siemens trains were unsafe. Then it was revealed that technically the AGV and the Velaro are similar. So now it has switched his argument to unfair competition. The suggest that the Velaro is inferior, yet it is becoming one of the most sought after trains in the world, whereas the AGV has yet to sell anywhere except France and Italy.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 01:28 PM   #1049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Alsthom says that the Siemens trains don't meet the current tunnel safety standards. That is something completely different. It doesn't mean the trains are unsafe...
The Velaro D variant that Eurostar has ordered does meet the March 2010 safety standards, but the remaining hurdle is that it hasn't yet been certified.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 01:44 PM   #1050
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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
The argument over whether Alstom's safety concerns are valid does not answer why they themselves proposed a train that didn't deal with the safety concerns Alstom and the French govt are now invoking.
that's not true at all. The criterias are very clear and the alstom TGV using the tunnel follow the rules, which is not the case of the ICE.
The lenght of the train has to be 400 meters minimum.
the trains must have locomotives, the motors being present at the begining and at the end of the trains. Actually, several motors increase the danger, and frankly ICE is not very well-know for its reliability.
The trains have to be undividable.

Again, I can be wrong but show me where.

Quote:
For that reason alone, regardless of how valid Alstom is/was, they and the French govt are trying to pull one over, simple as that. Thats like attmepting to shoot someone, then claiming the moral high ground just because someone else shot the target before you did.
The french gvt acts Just like Merkel did when DB wanted to buy TGV instead of ICE, as simple as that. Whereas Alstom had won the offer they never send any TGV to DB....
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 01:46 PM   #1051
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Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
The Velaro D variant that Eurostar has ordered does meet the March 2010 safety standards, but the remaining hurdle is that it hasn't yet been certified.
There is no MARCH 2010 SAFETY STANDARDS, this standards didn't recieve any kind of validation.... and that's the problem actually, and that's the reason why Alstom will win.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 02:15 PM   #1052
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Originally Posted by caserass View Post
that's not true at all. The criterias are very clear and the alstom TGV using the tunnel follow the rules, which is not the case of the ICE.
The lenght of the train has to be 400 meters minimum.
The train does not have to be 400 meters minimum. The curent eurostar sets are 394m, and the regional eurostars are were even shorter. Longer than 400m would be problematic, as 400m is the maximum length for a passenger train under the TSI norms.

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the trains must have locomotives, the motors being present at the begining and at the end of the trains. Actually, several motors increase the danger, and frankly ICE is not very well-know for its reliability.
Remember last winter? The problems were due to a fundamental design flaw that all current TGV derivatives (and quite a few french loco's) suffer from.
The Velaro-D has proven to be reliable, and is a significantly different design than the ICE-3.

Quote:
The trains have to be undividable.
You mean dividable, right?

Quote:
The french gvt acts Just like Merkel did when DB wanted to buy TGV instead of ICE, as simple as that. Whereas Alstom had won the offer they never send any TGV to DB....
Can you give me more info about that? You appear to claim that Alsthom actually won the offer to supply DB with new high speed trains, but that the Government interfered? I have not heard anything about such a thing.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 02:35 PM   #1053
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Originally Posted by caserass View Post
There is no MARCH 2010 SAFETY STANDARDS, this standards didn't recieve any kind of validation.... and that's the problem actually, and that's the reason why Alstom will win.
You can find the network statement for Eurotunnel here:

http://www.eurotunnel.com/ukcP3Main/...kcRail/ukprail

It says amongst other things:

"The criteria set out in the section apply to all passenger-carrying train compositions. Trains may be composed of vehicles hauled by locomotives positioned at either end or be formed from motor sets. There must be a driving position at each end of the train."

and

"The availability of emergency exits every 375m into the protected environment of the service tunnel is a main feature of the safety arrangements for occupants of the Channel Tunnel. One of the pre-conditions for efficient and safe evacuation of passengers in an emergency is to stop the train, and more specifically a coach carrying passengers or directly accessible by passengers, alongside an emergency exit. In order for this condition to be systematically achieved, irrespective of stopping conditions in particular, passenger trains are normally required to be at least 375m long (excluding power cars, unless passengers can easily evacuate from them) and passengers have to be able to pass from one end to the other. This base configuration provides the optimum conditions of safety if evacuation is necessary."

So the E320 sets could indeed meet the required safety standards, as they are of sufficient length, and distributed power is allowed. The wording however suggest that the requirement for a minimum length of 375m is not set in stone.

Incidently: The eurostar sets also have distributed power (as there are powered bogies on passenger cars) and are shorter than the minimum length of 375 if one excludes the power cars. Also the NOL sets are only 320m long, and they used to be cleared for the tunnel also.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 04:17 PM   #1054
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Originally Posted by caserass View Post
the trains must have locomotives, the motors being present at the begining and at the end of the trains. Actually, several motors increase the danger, and frankly ICE is not very well-know for its reliability.
The trains have to be undividable.

Again, I can be wrong but show me where.
K has answered the other points, but with respect to this one Alstom did not tender a locomotive + trailer package. That is my point. They are complaining that Eurostar opted for distributed power, when this is what they themselves proposed. As the entire tendering process was not done in the normal fasion the details of Alstom's proposal are not available AFAIK, but Roger Ford's informed sources in Modern Railways magazine says that Alstom tendered a distributed power unit, and this is why there is such a fuss about the mess within the industry at the moment.

The trains do not have to be undividable. The existing Eurostar trainsets ARE dividable, in the middle, this is why the middle two trailer cars are not articulated.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 09:33 PM   #1055
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I have to say he makes a point here, Deutsch Bahn has never ordered anything else than German trains, and what he said about the police is also true for the entire German administration.
So?
At best this proves that the German companies buy German.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 01:12 AM   #1056
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So?
At best this proves that the German companies buy German.
Which is like saying that American citizens prefer buying American cars because they're American. It doesn't say anything about the quality of the other cars.

I am not so sure about whether or not Alstom will 'win' this. There are no winners in this case... maybe except for Alstom if they do win. Then Eurostar will lose on it, Siemens loses on it, and the whole privatization and open inner borders thinking which is behind the EU will lose because of it.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 01:18 AM   #1057
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they started to advert in st pancras! i saw the ads this week end! Siemens dressed yellow habits for traditional eurostar!
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 02:12 AM   #1058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caserass View Post
There is no MARCH 2010 SAFETY STANDARDS, this standards didn't recieve any kind of validation.... and that's the problem actually, and that's the reason why Alstom will win.
http://m.ft.com/cms/s/0/559848ea-d30...tml?ftcamp=rss


Quote:
Richard Clifton, head of the UK delegation to the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority, said no party had raised serious concerns during a consultation launched in July last year about allowing trains with distributed power – motors distributed throughout the train – use the tunnel.

"During the consultation exercise, no serious opposition to trains with distributed power running into the tunnel was raised by any consultees," Mr Clifton said. "Certainly, Alstom, in the submission that they made, raised no concerns about distributed power."

The safety authority's consultation on the tunnel safety rules culminated in the issuing of a letter on March 31 this year by the Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission setting out the review's conclusions. The letter, which was sent to Alstom, says the IGC has accepted the principle of allowing trains with distributed power to use the tunnel.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 02:24 AM   #1059
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1-
Which is like saying that American citizens prefer buying American cars because they're American. It doesn't say anything about the quality of the other cars.
2-
I am not so sure about whether or not Alstom will 'win' this. There are no winners in this case... maybe except for Alstom if they do win. Then Eurostar will lose on it, Siemens loses on it, and the whole privatization and open inner borders thinking which is behind the EU will lose because of it.
1-Yes.
2-
No, Alstom will not win,..probabily, and if it "wins" it will be a very Pyrric victory, that is to say a Victory which as suour as a defeat.
a)
Eurotunnel owned by French, (55%?) British (40%?) and Belgian? (5%?) Railways and:
b)
Eurotunel is a company, which operates independently from either SNCF, BR (or whatever .) and Belgian state owned railways.
As such Eurotunnel has it own legal standing and the decision to buy a modified ICE 4 version was made by the Eurotunnel Board of Directors.
b)
Alstom partecipated to the bidding with the AGV, an articulated train, which for the time being exists only as a prototype, while Siemens suggested its version of a train already tested and sold worldwide.
c)
The tunnel safety rules have changed, or are about to change.
d)
A British Judge has rejected the application lodged by Alston.
e)
Clearly the French transport Minister has complained, and a few heads have fallen, but this is just normal smoke, made both to save face and to force Eurotunnel to buy either some AGV or some Speedelia trains.
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Old November 4th, 2010, 03:58 AM   #1060
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You mean Eurostar. Eurotunnel, which owns the Channel Tunnel, is an entirely different company.
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