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Old November 4th, 2010, 08:39 AM   #1061
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Originally Posted by Gag Halfrunt View Post
You mean Eurostar. Eurotunnel, which owns the Channel Tunnel, is an entirely different company.
And the safety certificates are handed out by yet another organisation, the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority. And in that body the Brits have equal say, and we know that the UK would love to see more operators through the Chunnel.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 04:29 PM   #1062
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France is often accused of protectionnism and it is true to say it, nethertheless, I think the french gvt is right.... sometimes


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Old November 12th, 2010, 06:31 AM   #1063
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
That is actually not true.
DB (and other German operators) have quite a few Alstom build trains on their roster. That Germany railway operators only buy German has been a thing of the past for quite some time. "Buying german" is not as widespread in Germany is "buying french" is in France. French companies can (and do) operate train services in Germany.
That the German police only buys german build cars is also not true...

People usually make a rather simple mistake.


Buying french usually means buying alstom for the last decades or so


buying german usually means buying either Siemens or Bombardier (or any of their previous inumerous consolidated companies such as K-M , ABB , Asea , LHB ,and such)

Buying british on the other hand has no real meaning nowadays

A lot of new trains in france are actually from Bombardier ... one must remember that.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 06:41 AM   #1064
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Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
So?
At best this proves that the German companies buy German.
The french industry designed the TGV for HS in SNCF routes

The german industry designed the ICE1/2/3/VT for the german HS routes


Siemens and Bombardier seem to had much more focus on the goal than alstom when it cames to suplying the german market.

On the other hand ... french are really protectionists ... probably that's why the french TGV trainsts are forbiden to go into HSL Koln-Frankfurt ... oh ... wait...


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Old November 12th, 2010, 07:42 AM   #1065
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
On the other hand ... french are really protectionists ... probably that's why the french TGV trainsts are forbiden to go into HSL Koln-Frankfurt ... oh ... wait...
French TGV trainsets are not a priori forbidden to go on to the HSL Köln Frankfurt. SNCF just never asked for their trains to be certified for that route as they have no interest in it. German ICE-1 and 2 trains aren't allowed on that route as well btw, and it is possible that an unmodified French TGV would not achieve certification for this route either. It's mostly a matter of technical standards. Magnetic rail brakes are required on the Köln Frankfurt HSL, on French HSLs they are forbidden...
The ICE-3 had to be modified to be allowed on French HSLs. If SNCF were to procure a train from any manufacturer, and get it certified for the HSL Köln - Frankfurt it would be permitted to run on it.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 01:34 PM   #1066
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you should read the letter then : COMMISSION INTERGOUVERNEMENTALE AU TUNNEL SOUS LA MANCHE CHANNEL TUNNEL INTERGOVERNMENTAL COMMISSION

here is the introduction of this letter
Quote:
The objective of this letter is to advise you of the conclusions reached by the Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission (IGC) on its review of the unified safety rules relating to the Channel Tunnel, on which it initially wrote to consultees on 21 July 2009. The IGC later placed the letter on its website and, ultimately, responses were received from a wide variety of organisations. The conclusions have been reached after considering the results of consultation, including at consultation meetings held in London on 16 November 2009 and 26 February 2010, and advice from the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority (CTSA). The conclusions will be further discussed with the Concessionaires with a view to introducing any new operating rules necessary to implement them.
The conclusions are set out below in the order raised in the original consultation letter.
The problem has nothing to do with the quality or the security in itself, it's just about law and rules. The order has been based on new criterias who weren't validated, I tend to believe than Alstom will be able to break the order.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 01:35 PM   #1067
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Originally Posted by Marie-Joseph-Paul View Post
this kind of answer : is pretty pathetic you know.

If you have something to say, say it.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 03:50 PM   #1068
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Eurostar : Alstom's statement

11 November 2010

Alstom has proceeded with legal action at the High Court in London on the merits of the case questioning the fairness of the tender for Eurostar high speed trains. During the preliminary hearing on 10 November, the court set the calendar of the procedure, fixed the date of the trial for October 2011 and ordered Eurostar to disclose the documents relating to the evaluation of the offers, which it failed to hand over during the previous injunction proceedings.

Press Contact
Stéphane Farhi - Tel +33 1 41 49 33 08
[email protected]
Source: Alstom.com
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Old November 12th, 2010, 05:20 PM   #1069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caserass View Post




France is often accused of protectionnism and it is true to say it, nethertheless, I think the french gvt is right.... sometimes





Quote:
Originally Posted by caserass View Post
this kind of answer : is pretty pathetic you know.

If you have something to say, say it.
Do you think that economic protectionism is a good policy?

Last edited by Marie-Joseph-Paul; November 12th, 2010 at 05:38 PM.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 05:47 PM   #1070
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Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Source: Alstom.com
So Alstom are suing their existing customer and hoping to delay the order by setting court cases a year in the future.

Meanwhile, DB will push on with getting access to London and get an even bigger head start on the same markets.


Do Alstom really think this is going to endear them to other operators around the world?
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Old November 12th, 2010, 05:58 PM   #1071
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post

A lot of new trains in france are actually from Bombardier ... one must remember that.
A lot of new trains in France are actually from .........Bombardier Transport France S.A.S.
http://www.bombardier.com/en/corpora...1260d80017172#
Usines---->Crespin, Caen, Paris
Le site BOMBARDIER Transport de Crespin (Nord), anciennement ANF Industrie, emploie plus de 1600 employés. Il produit des métros, tramways, trams sur pneus, trains urbains et régionaux, automotrices et rames TGV. Les principaux contrats sont le TGV Duplex, le TER2N NG et le ZTER pour la SNCF, le MI2N et le MF 2000 pour la RATP et l’AGC, pour les régions Françaises. L’établissement de Crespin comporte également un Centre d’Expertise Bogies.
http://www.grrt.fr/html/grrt/adheren...id_adherent=45

http://www.bombardier.com/en/corpora...01260d800f835b

Last edited by Marie-Joseph-Paul; November 12th, 2010 at 06:18 PM.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 06:12 PM   #1072
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Originally Posted by caserass View Post
you should read the letter then : COMMISSION INTERGOUVERNEMENTALE AU TUNNEL SOUS LA MANCHE CHANNEL TUNNEL INTERGOVERNMENTAL COMMISSION

here is the introduction of this letter


The problem has nothing to do with the quality or the security in itself, it's just about law and rules. The order has been based on new criterias who weren't validated, I tend to believe than Alstom will be able to break the order.

The rest of the letter is very telling. Especially section III.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 07:37 PM   #1073
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Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
The rest of the letter is very telling. Especially section III.
yes it is true, but as i said the criterias in the letter to let the new trains go through the tunnel hasn't been validated, at least not yet.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 07:59 PM   #1074
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Originally Posted by caserass View Post
The problem has nothing to do with the quality or the security in itself, it's just about law and rules. The order has been based on new criterias who weren't validated, I tend to believe than Alstom will be able to break the order.

The important point here is that Alstom itself also proposed a train with distributed traction, so they obviously assumed that such a train was acceptable, or would become acceptable. Offering a product compliant with a future set of requirements is not bad practice.
Alstom can't just argue that the competing product disqualifies because it uses distributed traction, as it offered such a product itself.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 08:32 PM   #1075
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The important point here is that Alstom itself also proposed a train with distributed traction, so they obviously assumed that such a train was acceptable, or would become acceptable. Offering a product compliant with a future set of requirements is not bad practice.
Alstom can't just argue that the competing product disqualifies because it uses distributed traction, as it offered such a product itself.
Unfortunately, the law is the law and even if Alstom proposed a new train it doesn't change the fact that maybe the bid request wasn't legal. I guess they made this proposal because they were sure they would win the order.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 08:36 PM   #1076
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Unfortunately, the law is the law and even if Alstom proposed a new train it doesn't change the fact that maybe the bid request wasn't legal. I guess they made this proposal because they were sure they would win the order.
The law is the law, but there is nothing illegal in proposing a product that does not comply with current requirements, but that anticipates complying with future requirements.
The bidding process Eurostar used needs to be open and transparent, that is the law. Only if Alstom can prove that the choice was not made according to the a priori published criteria do they have a case.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 08:40 PM   #1077
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Originally Posted by Marie-Joseph-Paul View Post
Do you think that economic protectionism is a good policy?
all the countries in the world with few exceptions follow a policy of protectionism and I can tell you the european countries (and France of course) aren't the worst about that.

For example, the custom duties is a mean often used by the countries following a protectionism policy and AFAIK France is clearly open in the contrary countries like Japan or US are finally very protectionnist. It is just an example but protectionism is not just fighting on one contract or fighting for just one company as it has been done by France in the past.

Also, I would say seeing the result of a free trade world and the consequences on Africa and some other parts in the world, so yes my conclusion is sometimes protectionnism can be a good thing and seeing the result the french have had with their public companies, I'm sorry but I cannot see any good reason to stop fighting for them.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 08:43 PM   #1078
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The law is the law, but there is nothing illegal in proposing a product that does not comply with current requirements, but that anticipates complying with future requirements.
It seems you don't understand very well, in regards of the law there is not future requirements since the future requirements haven't been validated. That's the point.

Quote:
The bidding process Eurostar used needs to be open and transparent, that is the law. Only if Alstom can prove that the choice was not made according to the a priori published criteria do they have a case.
No the bidding is illegal, of course I can be sure, but that's my conclusion about this story.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 09:12 PM   #1079
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Originally Posted by caserass View Post
It seems you don't understand very well, in regards of the law there is not future requirements since the future requirements haven't been validated. That's the point.



No the bidding is illegal, of course I can be sure, but that's my conclusion about this story.
How can you be sure? What in the literature of this case have read that tells you this is illegal? Otherwise, it's too early to jump to conclusions such as that.
Secondly, on such a valuable order, it's highly unlikely that illegal practices would have occurred, there's simply too much risk of said order becoming null and void.

In the end, it seems that Alstom has provided an inferior product, and Eurostar simply chose the rolling stock that would serve the company best. Alstom (and to an extent the French Government) are probably simply trying to make a show of their displeasure, to appease the French population, and they'll eventually let this event fade away and concentrate their efforts on producing a better product for the next time.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 10:13 PM   #1080
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
French TGV trainsets are not a priori forbidden to go on to the HSL Köln Frankfurt. SNCF just never asked for their trains to be certified for that route as they have no interest in it. German ICE-1 and 2 trains aren't allowed on that route as well btw, and it is possible that an unmodified French TGV would not achieve certification for this route either. It's mostly a matter of technical standards. Magnetic rail brakes are required on the Köln Frankfurt HSL, on French HSLs they are forbidden...
The ICE-3 had to be modified to be allowed on French HSLs. If SNCF were to procure a train from any manufacturer, and get it certified for the HSL Köln - Frankfurt it would be permitted to run on it.
It was meant to be a joke ... as in since french were protectionists they proibited their tgv trainsets from entering german HSL.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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